Rhombus?

Do you agree that wwomen should have a rhombus at the top of their sail?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 29.7%
  • No

    Votes: 26 70.3%

  • Total voters
    37
#81
btw anything Jeff calls a policy is something he likes to do routinely that some people might object to, so his line of defense is "it's Class policy". Haven't looked at an ILCA Handbook recently, but I don't recall there being a list of Class Policies in there. They seem to be entirely discretionary. Curious, huh?
Then maybe you should open the ILCA handbook and refresh your memory. Page 5 of my 2007 handbook is headed up "ILCA Policy and Useful Information". In the middle of the page there is a section on "WOMEN - policy". It recommends that women competitors place a red diamond on their sail when sailing in mixed fleets.

On the next page under MASTERS policy it specifically says that women may sail in the Standard rig fleets at Masters Worlds but will only be eligible for age category prizes.

Now maybe Mr Martin produces this handbook. But I have to assume that because these policies are in the handbook they have the tacit approval at least of the World Council. You might disagree with these policies but I think you have to accept that they have a stronger status than just "something Jeff likes to do".
 
#82
Hoo Boy, I apologize for not reading to the end of the thread before posting the last rant. To the question OG asks "What difference does it make if this is passed as a Class rule or not" I have a good, short, compelling answer.
You misunderstood the point of my question. If you read the proposed rule carefully you will see that it only automatically requires a woman to display a rhombus at certain high level women's events. Of course at such women only events it would be pointless anyway.

As the proposed rule is drafted, if the organizers of a mixed fleet event want women to display the rhombus then they would have to write it into the SIs or NOR. JUST LIKE THEY DO NOW. In other words, because the rule is badly drafted it would not have any practical effect, whether it passes or not.
 
#83
Since no one has bothered to answer I will pose it again>>

Can men put up a rhombus and compete in the women's fleets??
Can Men sail radials in teh Olympics.
Can Gay men sail in those races?
Are Lesbians allowed?
Are transgendered people allowed? If so in which fleets?
Will there be biological sex testing? If so what is the official Laser class definition of female and male?
Who will write the rules? Will we get a chance to vote on the definition of females and males rules?
If a man buys a sail with a rhombus is he required to remove the rhombus? Is there a class rule about that?
Remember Renee Richards of tennis fame? What will be the rule related to females who became females as a result of hormone shots and surgical operations.

Just posing those hypos for the writers above who suggested the hypos help the discussion
 
#84
It is indeed. The wording of the proposed rule itself is somewhat fuzzy. It seems to say that in the absence of any prescription in the NOR or SIs that women should be identified with a rhombus, that the rhombus is only required in "women's events".

This seems very confusing to me. If it is a "women's event" aren't all the competitors women? So why the need for the rhombus?
Following what seems to be our favorite example, the Radial Master Worlds will sail as a mixed fleet but decide two world championships: the overall Radial Master World Champions (in their age divisions) AND the Women's Radial World Champions (in their age divisions).

Other events may see the women's fleets sail separately but may still be held as an event combined with male sailors. For example, the Men's Radial World Championship and Women's Radial World Championship. Of course, here the issue is helping the RC sort out which fleet is which - something not all of us have agreed to.

And if it's an event for men and women combined then presumably the proposed rule would have no effect unless it is specifically written into the NOR and/or SIs that rhombuses should be worn by women. Which is the option that is available to regatta organizers now.

So can someone explain what difference it makes whether this rule passes or not?
If one thinks that putting an insignia a sail is a good way to identify a grouping (e.g. Master's sailors should put a red square on their sail) then there is good reason to have it specified in the Class Rules: here you can specify the shape, color, size and placement to insure that, just like with sail numbers and country codes, it is done uniformly when it is needed.

If you leave it to the NOR and/or SI's then if the organizers aren't careful you could end up having to change it at every regatta you go to.
 
#85
Since no one has bothered to answer I will pose it again>>

Can men put up a rhombus and compete in the women's fleets??
Can Men sail radials in teh Olympics.
Can Gay men sail in those races?
Are Lesbians allowed?
Are transgendered people allowed? If so in which fleets?
Will there be biological sex testing? If so what is the official Laser class definition of female and male?
Who will write the rules? Will we get a chance to vote on the definition of females and males rules?
If a man buys a sail with a rhombus is he required to remove the rhombus? Is there a class rule about that?
Remember Renee Richards of tennis fame? What will be the rule related to females who became females as a result of hormone shots and surgical operations.

Just posing those hypos for the writers above who suggested the hypos help the discussion
Fred, you put that there hoping this thread would go to four pages and it has. I thought we were going to win something. Are you upping the ante after the fact so that we have to go to 6 or 7 pages or something?
 
#86
Fred, you put that there hoping this thread would go to four pages and it has. I thought we were going to win something. Are you upping the ante after the fact so that we have to go to 6 or 7 pages or something?

My devious plan is>>>

Make everybody so sick of typing their answers to my "insightful" questions they decide to just answer in person......They load up their cars and show up here in Austin ...and race Lasers while they are here.

Wednesdays 6 pm

or check the laser fleet page on www.austinyachtclub.net

or use the link in my signature
 
#87
If you leave it to the NOR and/or SI's then if the organizers aren't careful you could end up having to change it at every regatta you go to.
Which is why something temporary would address all the issues without defacing the sail. For example, the race organisers provide strips of sailcloth to tie to the top of the mast/sail (cheap, easy and does not deface the sail).

I will probably be in the market for a 2nd hand radial rig soon (for those days it is a bit too winds for my 68Kg). Clearly, I cannot buy fro any of those women who have already defaced their sails.

Still nobody supporting the proposed rule can say why something temporary for the regatta will not work just as well.

Ian
 
#88
I will probably be in the market for a 2nd hand radial rig soon (for those days it is a bit too winds for my 68Kg). Clearly, I cannot buy fro any of those women who have already defaced their sails.
What's the problem? You're going to have to change the sail numbers on your second-hand Radial sail anyway to comply with the rule that your sail number must match your hull number (and to avoid getting confused with the woman you bought it from). So just peel off the rhombuses and clean off any sticky residue at the same time.

Or am I missing something? Aren't the rhombuses just stuck on like sail numbers?
 
#89
What's the problem? You're going to have to change the sail numbers on your second-hand Radial sail anyway to comply with the rule that your sail number must match your hull number (and to avoid getting confused with the woman you bought it from). So just peel off the rhombuses and clean off any sticky residue at the same time.

Or am I missing something? Aren't the rhombuses just stuck on like sail numbers?
Having taken sail numbers off in the past (and unless the glue has changed) it never cleans off properly. In the past I would have just left the sail numbers and got permission to use wrong numbers (except often the "other boat" was sailing as well). Used to be a horrible job getting the glue off the sail and always left a sticky patch. Getting permission from RC to use wrong sail number is quite easy (unsure about Lasers but other classes its no big deal) but with the rhombus it marks you as being in a different fleet.


My main point is that something temporary will work just as well without messing the sail.


Ian
 
#90
Wow. This is still going on. I was at the D12 Radial Grand Prix last weekend in Chas SC and there was a young man there with a hand me down sail with both a rhombus and CHL country code on it. The world, if I recall correctly, did not end. A rhombus won't ruin a sail for regional or club racing any more than the extra top sail numbers some regattas like Orange Bowl require ruin a sail.

I'm glad to hear they race all the Radials together at the Masters Worlds; I want to go to Terrigal next Feb and I would like to do a Radial there but I also don't want to be in a small women's only fleet. Like Lainie said, what's the point of all the expense to sail in a fleet that small? I like racing the boys; they've never been rude to me so far (at least to my face). Good point about why they want to mark women when juniors and masters are not marked either, at least at an open regatta.
 
#91
I'll add my two cents worth to this already very long thread.

I sail in high school sailing and other all junior events. I realize that teenagers act differently than adults, however, I have been called some pretty negative names, such as honey, princess, and little girl. It is more common to hear these names at more important regattas, since some people are feeling pressured. If women are required to have a rhombus on their sail at these higher level regattas, it will only encourage more negative comments directed at females from their already stressed male competitors.
 

gouvernail

Active Member
#92
I have an older sister and when I was young my "hand me downs" included not only my first Optimist Pram but occasional clothing my parents thought wee sufficiently unisex to get by.

As a lifelong "little brother" who often received hand me downs, including my Optimist and Snipe, from my older sister:

Kids are brutal enough without additional ammunition, I cannot imagine how many fellow juniors I would have had to "Brodie" if my sail had any remnants of big sister's rhombus.

Repeating one of the unwritten class rules questions:
What if twin fraternal Brother and Sister share time on a Radial? Does the rhombus have to come off on the brother's racing days? Does Dad have to remove the rhombus when he borrows his daughter's boat?
What if Lainie rejoins the class, finaly puts on the rhombus, and then her son borrows the boat for open midwinters?
 

Merrily

Administrator
#93
If women are required to have a rhombus on their sail at these higher level regattas, it will only encourage more negative comments directed at females from their already stressed male competitors.
I'm a master's sailor and have not sailed at higher level events. I've been curious about young women's exeriences. Thank you for sharing.
 

gouvernail

Active Member
#94
attempting to be serious for a moment>>

If a patch on a sail made it possible to catch unsportsmanlike jerks who make prejudicial comments, I would put rhombi on all woman's sails, and probably identify every other group a well. There is no place for crap like that in sailing. We all come to race and play together and nothing about a person's sace, color, nationality, political party, looks, sex, job, or anything else that has nothing to do with our race should ever matter.

I have never heard a single derogatory sexist comment in any race directed seriously at any female ever.
I have been involved in and overheard what I consider to be somewhat sexist horseplay, but never have I heard a comment that was simultaneously sexist and deliberately unfriendly. ( I will not attempt to include opinions regarding deep seated unconscious motives as that would render this discussion to the absurd.)

I hope the above mentioned experiences are uncommon and I certainly hope any other sailors who witness any such sexist comments will make every effort to delete that sort of behavior from our game.

Just to rewarm the conversation>

Sometime around 1988 we were racing J-24s in light winds on Galveston Bay. Our all guy team tacked directly upwind of our good friends who were an all girl team. They breathed a five woman whine that was absolutely hilarious and for years after that we groaned or they whined whenever either team did anything to the other. ( Bouy overlaps, holes at the start, any close crossing, etc.) Certainly the groans and whines were sexist but they were done 100% in the interest of play and appreciation of the other team.
 
#95
I sail in high school sailing and other all junior events. I realize that teenagers act differently than adults, however, I have been called some pretty negative names, such as honey, princess, and little girl.
Wow. Teenage boys tease teenage girls? Who would have thunk it?

Don't worry about it whirlwind. It's hard to believe right now but those boys will grow up to be respectful, polite, gallant, caring, sensitive young men... just like the majority of Laser sailors. For now, just ignore their immature remarks. Believe me there is nothing teenage boys hate more than girls ignoring them.
 
#96
And how many actual on the water sailors will this rule affect in real use? LOL

A rhombus? Come on, certainly we can be more creative and representational with our insignias! How about we start off by requiring males and females to each stick the biological symbols for male and female (what I call the arrow/male and target/female)...you know the circles with the downpointed plus sign attached (female) and the arrow pointing NE (male). For youth, since the kids are not yet usually interested in the opposite sex, they can use the opposite sex's insignia with a circle with a line through it (the universal "no/not" symbol); i.e., No Girls!/No Boys! For masters sailors, the males' symbol can be modified to show the normally erect arrow drooping/curving downward, and the females'...well, how about...oh I am not going to post any suggestions for that for fear of being too gross or offensive.

Personally, I'd like to be ID'ed by being required to sew a HUGE pink triangle inverted and superimposed over a yellow triangle onto my sail (Since class legal rainbow striped sails are not available), though that doesn't help ID my gender...maybe a combo of the 3rd Reich triangles and the scientific gender symbols would simplify IDing me. With the trianagle system (already tried and tested with real folks!), the RC won't confuse me with any Catholic communists or straight political dissenters.

Better yet: Let's buy corrective lenses for RC folks who can't read BIG numbers at 200 yards.

Seriously, the rhombus "class policy" sounds ridiculous both in print and in practice.
 
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