Thanks, I was sailing a Y-Flyer this year (1976 vintage) and it is very similar method for rig tension - forestay is more of a safety line, side shrouds are "loose" and the "magic box" using the jib halyard is how the standing rigging gets tensioned. Mast rake could be adjusted on the fly via the magic box. Tuning guides gave the mast mainsail halyard to transom measurement guidance. When the jib halyard is tensioned right the shrouds are "tight" and the forestay was so loose we had a shock cord attached so that it would not flop around and get in the jib path.Thinking back many moons when I sailed 470s. Given there are so many different manufacturers and so many different national authorities with their own numbering, it isn't like Lasers where a sail number is assigned to each hull by the builder. I believe when you buy a 470, it is up to you to contact the national authority who will then assign a sail number.
I had an old 470, and I was able to contact US Sailing and get a copy of the original measurement certificate. Presumably the sail number would be with that. However that was 30 years ago, and there is no telling what sort of documentation they still have.
edit - I see LaLi clued you in to the builder's sticker, so that is most likely the info you want. I had an early 80s vintage that was US 15xx, so 1358 would seem about right for a mid 70s hull. The class never was too popular in the US. As those era Vanguards were fairly rugged as least as 470s go. Glad to see the old girl getting back out on the water. Go easy on the rig tension.
Probably best to simply leave it out and patch the rivet holes. I think Vanguard dropped it from their later boats, and other builders didn't have anything similar either from the late 1970s on.this 470 has a 3/4" wide with a small lip "rubber" rub rail that is riveted on.
Thanks!Probably best to simply leave it out and patch the rivet holes. I think Vanguard dropped it from their later boats, and other builders didn't have anything similar either from the late 1970s on.
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Thanks, I was sailing a Y-Flyer this year (1976 vintage) and it is very similar method for rig tension - forestay is more of a safety line, side shrouds are "loose" and the "magic box" using the jib halyard is how the standing rigging gets tensioned. Mast rake could be adjusted on the fly via the magic box. Tuning guides gave the mast mainsail halyard to transom measurement guidance. When the jib halyard is tensioned right the shrouds are "tight" and the forestay was so loose we had a shock cord attached so that it would not flop around and get in the jib path.
Magic boxes were ditched in the early 1980s when people realized that cascading systems with floating blocks have considerably less friction. Most magic boxes (especially ones mounted on the mast) also have a relatively short range of adjustment, which makes jib halyard wire length pretty critical. But if an old box runs reasonably smoothly (you may have to disassemble and clean it) and gets you in the ballpark tuningwise, keep it.The magic box is an older system for the jib tension. Now most 470s have a multi-purcharse tensioning system that is fed back to a cleat along the side of the centerboard. I guess the intent is to make it easier for the skipper to adjust the rig tension.
It depends on the individual hull. As a rule of thumb, the vast majority of 470s built after 1986 can take adequate rig tension. Older than that are more hit or miss, with the percentage of "misses" growing rapidly with age. You have to test it. A few cracking sounds are normalThe tuning guides will suggest very tight rig tensions, in excess of 300 lbs. Those numbers are for Olympians with brand new hulls. You do not want anywhere near that much rig tension in a 50-year-old hull.
To tell the truth, I don't think any of the current ones online (that I know of) are very good. They include irrelevant measurements and/or apply to present-day mast sections only, and aren't compatible with one another. Their English language can be pretty interesting, tooWhich tuning guide do you recommend?
I have had the 470 out several times and raced last Sunday. I fixed the centerboard pivot bolt leak. I wanted to test to see if the bailers were leaking so I duck taped them from underneath before putting in and when we went out the water in the cockpit area was almost nothing compared to Sunday's race. Any guess on the type of bailer? I found a PDF for repairing Anderson bailers but not sure what is on my boat.With "the deck filled with water" I take you mean the cockpit filled with water
The classic point of leakage in 470s of all vintages is the centreboard pivot bolt. Simply tightening it may be enough, but you should also have fresh rubber washers (neoprene is fine) there.
The bailers of course is the other likely culprit. You may have to replace them, depending where exactly they leak. The centreboard gasket however is unlikely to let water in the boat (it's supposed to do the exact opposite), as its mounting screws don't pierce the inside surface of the bottom (do they? Post pictures from both sides).
If with "the forward area" you mean the forward tank, that leaks most often from the cockpit side through poorly functioning drainhole fittings.
I suggest that you test all these areas by filling the boat on land with enough water that the centreboard pivot bolt gets submerged. Then watch where it comes out from the bottom side! (And if the forward tank gets any of it.)
On another note, what's your mast rake? The rig appears to be unusually upright with the boom very high. You seem to have the shrouds in the uppermost hole, so at least there's room for adjustment.
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Until you post some pictures and measurements, noAny guess on the type of bailer?
Here are my leaking bailers: they are about 5.3" long and 2.6" wide. Can they be rebuilt or replaced?Until you post some pictures and measurements, no
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Thanks, I ordered the parts - your help is much appreciated!Ok, that's an Andersen Super Medium. It's probably the longest-produced unchanged fitting in modern sailboat historyIt can't really be rebuilt if it leaks between the chute and the non-moving part. You want to test that by taping over just the fibreglass/stainless seam on the outside, pouring water into the cockpit and seeing if any comes out with the bailer closed. If so, you have to replace the whole thing. If not, all you need to replace is the rubber seal. You can buy those off the shelf. too, but I guess they could be homebuilt as well.
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Thanks, yes it came with the what appears to be the original trapeze rigging but the original owner had no idea what anything was so it was all in bags with the standing rigging stuff. I was looking for any bread crumbs of information to setup the rigging with the understanding that this is a 1976 "project boat" and I am not racing in any 470 regattas. Our sailing association is small and I race the 470 in the handicap slot and we use the Portsmouth ratings. Thanks again for all of your help - it made getting this old girl back on the water possible.First, a rule of thumb: do NOT look for anything mid-1970s vintage in terms of 470 equipment and system arrangements (unless for stylistic reasons where possible). The layout of the boat evolved quite rapidly in the late 70s/early 80s, and by '84 or so it looked pretty similar to what it is today. (The current trend is to lead nearly all adjustments to the side tanks, but that's really a minor refinement.) The boat is actually easier to sail now, so it makes no sense to copy/emulate anything obsolete.
Trapezing techniques changed during that same time period; the handles went higher, and the multihull-style systems were abandoned. Currently handles consist of a rope part (on top of which you can slide a plastic or rubber tube for comfort) and a round plastic plate at the cleat.
The only place online that sells 470-specific stuff, including trapeze equipment, is Mackay Boats. Another possibility is to buy much more widely available 420 class trapezes and lengthen them (they are almost half a metre shorter I believe) with a longer rope part.
I see you have the round holes on your mast for J-hook attachments for the trapezes. The problem with that is that everyone uses T-shaped terminals nowadays, so wherever you get your wires from, you'll have to ask them to change those to fit your mast (if they do custom wire work). Or you can elongate those holes to fit a T-terminal.
Didn't the boat come with any usable trapeze equipment?
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Ok, take that stuff out of the bags so we can see what you've got - It's very likely going to be a lot easier to modernize/add to that than trying to make brand new equipment fit. Find the wires with the J-hooks, attach them to the mast, and we'll go on from there.yes it came with the what appears to be the original trapeze rigging but the original owner had no idea what anything was so it was all in bags with the standing rigging stuff.
Thanks!, will do next weekend when I am at the lake racing.Ok, take that stuff out of the bags so we can see what you've got - It's very likely going to be a lot easier to modernize/add to that than trying to make brand new equipment fit. Find the wires with the J-hooks, attach them to the mast, and we'll go on from there.
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Again, don't think of your boat as an "older 470" in the sense that it would somehow need technical solutions that are fundamentally different from "newer" boats. You choose what is smartest, not what they had back in the day. (Unless there's a reasonable stylistic choice to be made!)I watched what I could find - not much for older 470 but some for the 420 which are not the same but give me some ideas.
Yes. That end connects to a hook that in turn connects to the pole, and the uphaul. The other end should (most likely) lead aft, have a stopper (such as a plastic ball) to keep the pole from skying, and an elastic to hold it (and the uphaul with it) tight along the mast. It may be adjustable, but I doubt that that was intended on your boat.Is this the spinnaker pole downhaul?
Had to look hard at this one. The line is obviously just stowed away like that. It could well be the secondary halyard line, which would connect to a block through which the primary line (the "actual" halyard) runs, forming a 1:3 or 1:4 reverse-purchase system. That's one of those fun things that aren't totally necessary, and you can run the halyard as a 1:1. The (primary) halyard of yours may not be long enough for that, though. Rig it and see what happens.Is this the spinnaker halyard setup? I am not sure if someone tied this up for transport of how to connect the spinnaker halyard to this setup. The lower bungee line tied off to a bracket is the same line shown above.
If there's only one cleat marked "POLE", it's for the uphaul, and that's with which you adjust the pole angle. The downhaul (as mentioned above) only sets the limit for maximum pole height.The image belows has a label market pole. I am a bit confused -is this for a downhaul and topping lift for the spinnaker pole? The lines go forward (under the center console) so I assume that the pole lines come from the bow area.
The vang is very, very good to be adjustable from a hiking position. The cunningham, much less so. And the jib halyard you really, really don't need to adjust from the side tank... that would be some extremely high-end fine adjustment!the Vang and Cunningham have port and starboard controls - I am only using the starboard side right now. I did run the magic box out to the port side so I could adjust tension from my seat.
Yes, they're for the spinnaker sheet. What the picture doesn't show is whether there are additional blocks on the gunwale (as there should), but I assume not, as you didn't include them (and I don't see them in the older pictures, either). They used to be located some 50 to 60 cm forward, but they've crept farther aft over the years so they're right at the transom on all boats now.I assume that the two blocks on the transom are for the spinnaker lines?
Thanks again for your generous help. I am not sure what the MA? is for but I might run my jib magic box there. The Y-Flyers have a magic box setup the exact same way as the 470 and change the mast rake during races for different conditions (that is where I borrowed the idea). Old timers call if the, "gas pedal" adjustment and many skippers run it back to the mainsheet area to allow for quick changes.Again, don't think of your boat as an "older 470" in the sense that it would somehow need technical solutions that are fundamentally different from "newer" boats. You choose what is smartest, not what they had back in the day. (Unless there's a reasonable stylistic choice to be made!)
If you rig the spinnaker equipment like it's done on a 420, you'll get it mostly right. The only real difference is that you need the sheet lead to be near the transom, and not at the traveller (more on that below). The 470 class rules allow some extra goodies, such as twings and reverse-purchase halyards (more on that, too, below), but you don't really need them for recreational sailing.
Yes. That end connects to a hook that in turn connects to the pole, and the uphaul. The other end should (most likely) lead aft, have a stopper (such as a plastic ball) to keep the pole from skying, and an elastic to hold it (and the uphaul with it) tight along the mast. It may be adjustable, but I doubt that that was intended on your boat.
Had to look hard at this one. The line is obviously just stowed away like that. It could well be the secondary halyard line, which would connect to a block through which the primary line (the "actual" halyard) runs, forming a 1:3 or 1:4 reverse-purchase system. That's one of those fun things that aren't totally necessary, and you can run the halyard as a 1:1. The (primary) halyard of yours may not be long enough for that, though. Rig it and see what happens.
What's at the forward end of that elastic?
If there's only one cleat marked "POLE", it's for the uphaul, and that's with which you adjust the pole angle. The downhaul (as mentioned above) only sets the limit for maximum pole height.
The other V-cleat is for something else - does the label say MA...?
The vang is very, very good to be adjustable from a hiking position. The cunningham, much less so. And the jib halyard you really, really don't need to adjust from the side tank... that would be some extremely high-end fine adjustment!
Yes, they're for the spinnaker sheet. What the picture doesn't show is whether there are additional blocks on the gunwale (as there should), but I assume not, as you didn't include them (and I don't see them in the older pictures, either). They used to be located some 50 to 60 cm forward, but they've crept farther aft over the years so they're right at the transom on all boats now.
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Thanks again for your help. By the way, is there anyway to share more of arekas photos? Especially the trapeze setup. I messed up and disassembled the lower block system for the port and starboard trapeze on my 470 (all of the trapeze stuff was in a box when I bought the boat so I did think and robbed the hardware for other uses).At this point I had to find out what the Y-Flyer is all aboutSo... they sail with about 25 to 45 % less static rig tension than the 470, with a jib that's some 33 % larger. That means that the jib luff is intended to sag, and controlling the amount of it is fairly important!
On the other hand, 470 jibs are built with a straight (or nearly so) luff, and the idea is to have enough tension on the halyard that there is no (or very little) sag in all conditions. Except at the highest level of racing, you don't really adjust it on the water unless you change the shroud settings, too.
"MA..." probably means "mast", and as the jib halyard is the one adjustment that affects it the most, I guess that's where it's intended to cleat. Just add a small block behind the cleat so it's easy to pull in all directions.
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