Congrat's on getting a boat + getting back on the water + a good first race. Long may it continue. +1 to Emilio's comments.
There's a good thread on here somewhere (sorry I don't have a link right at hand) about buying a used boat, and it's also a useful "primer" for maintaining an older boat.
I own a 1973 boat + have owned it for about 25 years, and sail purely recreationally, don't race. I'll share my own experience + views.
1. Cutting the inspection port is a very good first step. My own boat has a reinforcing thicker area down the middle of the deck that's maybe 4-5 inches wide. I cut my hole on the centerline + if I had it to do again I'd cut it offcenter far enuf to miss that thicker area. I would rather not compromise the structural integrity, and it would have made installing the inspection port a little easier if I'd put it where the deck was a uniform thickness all the way around the hole.
2. Based on my own boat, talking with lots of people, and reading here, problems with the mast step have been MUCH more common than problems with the trunk. That suggests putting the hole to one side and behind the mast, but not SO far behind the mast, that it is difficult to work on the mast tube inside.
3. A VERY common failure in older boats including mine, is that the mast tube becomes detached from where it was secured to the bottom inside of the hull. That joint was built weak in older boats- a plywood "donut" covered with glass + epoxy, with a big "blob" of thicker epoxy placed in the bottom of it, then the deck with the mast tube was just lowered onto it, and further secured around the gunwales, but nothing more down at the bottom of the mast tube. Particularly in boats stored right-side-up in freezing weather, water in the mast hole freezes + thaws, and cracks the mast tube. Then water infiltrates that wood donut, it rots, expands + does more damage. Then one windy day the mast tube lets go at the bottom + tips over, and as the mast falls it tears the deck up badly.
4. So the fix is to go in there, remove bad structure, and beef it up with new. Usually a half dozen layers of glass and a bunch of epoxy around that base does the job well.
5. Mast- I think it's best to have the rivets in the collar of the upper mast facing AFT. As the mast bends, the back/aft part of the mast is compressed, and the front part is stretched. The holes in the back have less negative impact on strength of the mast under compression, than they would in the front, under tension.
6. If you use the vang a lot, and especially if you upgrade from the original vang to one with more purchase - the older booms didn't have a reinforcing sleeve inside them - the newer ones do. Older booms often break where the vang or inboard / forward mainsheet block straps are riveted - especially if there's any corrosion around those rivet holes. You can get and retrofit install a reinforcing sleeve (APS, Intensity Sails) into an older boom. I'd highly recommend that, again especially if you want to go out in more wind and / or use that vang a lot.
7. Other things to do: After my mast fell over + tore things up so badly, I decided reinforcing ahead of a failure is WAY easier - less time + money -- than cleaning up + repairing a torn-out mess afterwards. So I went thru the whole boat and reinforced and thru-bolted with BIG fender washers behind every highly stressed point I could think of. Rudder gudgeons, mainsheet block, traveller eyes, and hiking strap attach points fore+aft. The eyes at the base of the mast got done when I was fixing that. Most of those points were originally built with screws into plywood backing pieces that were glassed into the inside of the hull. Assuming that water got thru the bedding caulk in the course of 40 years, all those plywood backing pieces seemed suspect to me - vulnerable to tearing out, resulting in another mess to clean up + rebuild. So I went thru all those points with stainless thru-bolts and big fat fender washers inside. That meant cutting a port in the after deck, and one beside the daggerboard. I really don't mind ports, but I realize some people do - your boat, your call.
Enjoy it !!!
How old is your boat, what number? If it's 1990 or later (number 140000 or more), then your boom is already reinforced and you don't need to worry about that. (And you're less likely to have problems with the mast step as well.)
1973 ...
First thing you need to do is flip (end to end) your top mast. And when you do it, use only one "bolt" (rivet) for the mast collar.
Then always line up the rivet with the back of the mast.
E
First thing you need to do is flip (end to end) your top mast. And when you do it, use only one "bolt" (rivet) for the mast collar.
Then always line up the rivet with the back of the mast.
E
If i'ts 3 rivets in in now then i'ts both about that and about that the aluminium gets stiffer for every time it's bent and straightened again. I bought a used laser and after a year the mast broke from the single rivet when I straightened it. I could have gotten more sailing out of it.
Congrat's on getting a boat + getting back on the water + a good first race. Long may it continue. +1 to Emilio's comments.
There's a good thread on here somewhere (sorry I don't have a link right at hand) about buying a used boat, and it's also a useful "primer" for maintaining an older boat.
I own a 1973 boat + have owned it for about 25 years, and sail purely recreationally, don't race. I'll share my own experience + views.
1. Cutting the inspection port is a very good first step. My own boat has a reinforcing thicker area down the middle of the deck that's maybe 4-5 inches wide. I cut my hole on the centerline + if I had it to do again I'd cut it offcenter far enuf to miss that thicker area. I would rather not compromise the structural integrity, and it would have made installing the inspection port a little easier if I'd put it where the deck was a uniform thickness all the way around the hole.
2. Based on my own boat, talking with lots of people, and reading here, problems with the mast step have been MUCH more common than problems with the trunk. That suggests putting the hole to one side and behind the mast, but not SO far behind the mast, that it is difficult to work on the mast tube inside.
3. A VERY common failure in older boats including mine, is that the mast tube becomes detached from where it was secured to the bottom inside of the hull. That joint was built weak in older boats- a plywood "donut" covered with glass + epoxy, with a big "blob" of thicker epoxy placed in the bottom of it, then the deck with the mast tube was just lowered onto it, and further secured around the gunwales, but nothing more down at the bottom of the mast tube. Particularly in boats stored right-side-up in freezing weather, water in the mast hole freezes + thaws, and cracks the mast tube. Then water infiltrates that wood donut, it rots, expands + does more damage. Then one windy day the mast tube lets go at the bottom + tips over, and as the mast falls it tears the deck up badly.
4. So the fix is to go in there, remove bad structure, and beef it up with new. Usually a half dozen layers of glass and a bunch of epoxy around that base does the job well.
5. Mast- I think it's best to have the rivets in the collar of the upper mast facing AFT. As the mast bends, the back/aft part of the mast is compressed, and the front part is stretched. The holes in the back have less negative impact on strength of the mast under compression, than they would in the front, under tension.
6. If you use the vang a lot, and especially if you upgrade from the original vang to one with more purchase - the older booms didn't have a reinforcing sleeve inside them - the newer ones do. Older booms often break where the vang or inboard / forward mainsheet block straps are riveted - especially if there's any corrosion around those rivet holes. You can get and retrofit install a reinforcing sleeve (APS, Intensity Sails) into an older boom. I'd highly recommend that, again especially if you want to go out in more wind and / or use that vang a lot.
7. Other things to do: After my mast fell over + tore things up so badly, I decided reinforcing ahead of a failure is WAY easier - less time + money -- than cleaning up + repairing a torn-out mess afterwards. So I went thru the whole boat and reinforced and thru-bolted with BIG fender washers behind every highly stressed point I could think of. Rudder gudgeons, mainsheet block, traveller eyes, and hiking strap attach points fore+aft. The eyes at the base of the mast got done when I was fixing that. Most of those points were originally built with screws into plywood backing pieces that were glassed into the inside of the hull. Assuming that water got thru the bedding caulk in the course of 40 years, all those plywood backing pieces seemed suspect to me - vulnerable to tearing out, resulting in another mess to clean up + rebuild. So I went thru all those points with stainless thru-bolts and big fat fender washers inside. That meant cutting a port in the after deck, and one beside the daggerboard. I really don't mind ports, but I realize some people do - your boat, your call.
Enjoy it !!!
If you have more than one hole, then you're going to have at least the other under tension when the mast bends. The section is much less likely to fail under compression. Also, the more holes you have in one plane, the more likely it is to fail in the first place.I checked my mast last night and there is no bend. I guess I should keep an eye on it each season and end for end it when I see it start to warp?
What is the advantage of one rivet over the two (opposite each other) that my mast currently has?
Here are photos of the access ports on mine - - -
View attachment 23508
Like I said before, if I knew then what I know now, the one up front by the mast tube, I'd have put that off-center, and behind the mast - like on a line 45 degrees back + to the side, and far enuf away that the inboard edge was still clear of that stiffener ridge underneath the deck. But the one advantage of having it way up front is that I can reach to the bow - I'm gonna put some small LED nav light strips up there + this port will work well for that job.
The one by the daggerboard worked OK for thru-bolting the mainsheet block. The forward end of the hiking strap is held by the same screws / bolts which hold that block. It wasn't easy to reach the far side (port / left side) to get the washers + nuts on, but in the end I got it. I'm not sure where else that port could go that would work better. The back of the daggerboard trunk is very close to the front of the footwell inside there.
Here's the aft one -
View attachment 23509
Getting to the gudgeons and aft hiking strap attach points is easy from this one, and I did put this off-center, so it is away from that stiffener "ridge" that's down the centerline of the deck. I have not had any trouble with the tiller hanging up as it goes across this port. I've got a real old square aluminum tiller that's pretty stiff, and it rides like an inch or more above the deck. It does hang up sometimes on the jam cleat for the traveller, which is taller and sits on the forward edge of the after deck.
Hope it all helps, holler if anything else.
The ageing of aluminium occurs even when it's bent just dynamically, with other words also when it straigthens by itself when the load is of.I checked my mast last night and there is no bend. I guess I should keep an eye on it each season and end for end it when I see it start to warp?
What is the advantage of one rivet over the two (opposite each other) that my mast currently has?
... I'd think that's a real good place for itOh cool, thanks. Yeah, I know about the stringer down the center. I was actually tempted to place my port closely to where you have your line coiled, about 45 degrees to starboard-aft of the mast step. This way I can check the jam cleat as well.
The tiller has enuf flex in it that I'd have to bring it up a lot to clear the cleat. I fixed it by putting a piece of round lightweight aluminum tubing around the tiller, so the round part makes it ride up + over the jamcleat. I'd be reluctant to raise the rudder cuz when it's blowing and the boat heels + pulls the rudder up out of the water, the rudder has a bad habit of cavitating - basically digging a big hole in the water + acting like a big drag flap, instead of keeping water flow around both sides + turning the boat. I modified the rudder (prop's to Andy Atos, member here, for this idea) so it sticks straight down instead of at an angle, so it rides deeper. It definitely reduces weather helm and this cavitation problem, but if you get in irons, you've got nothing from the rudder in trying to swing the stern of the boat to get out. I've got the idea of twin rudders stuck my mind - the leeward one would stick deeper down as the boat heels, as opposed to the centerline rudder which gets raised up as it heels. I really enjoy getting out in a blow.For hanging up on your jamcleat, you could place a spacer washer on the pintle going into the gudgeon to kick it up a hair more.
No- I upgraded the outhaul (since I took these pics) to a 6:1 and bring the tail down the mast, to a double cam cleat on the deck. Almost sounds as if your outhaul jam cleat is worn out, or maybe the line is all crusted with salt/mud or something. I'm a big fan of more purchase in the outhaul + especially the vang - I can trim them under load. I can take a lot of belly + power out of the sail in a blow or a gust with the vang, which definitely helps me keep it right-side up.Side question, do you ever have a problem with your outhaul slipping?
... I'd think that's a real good place for it
The tiller has enuf flex in it that I'd have to bring it up a lot to clear the cleat. I fixed it by putting a piece of round lightweight aluminum tubing around the tiller, so the round part makes it ride up + over the jamcleat. I'd be reluctant to raise the rudder cuz when it's blowing and the boat heels + pulls the rudder up out of the water, the rudder has a bad habit of cavitating - basically digging a big hole in the water + acting like a big drag flap, instead of keeping water flow around both sides + turning the boat. I modified the rudder (prop's to Andy Atos, member here, for this idea) so it sticks straight down instead of at an angle, so it rides deeper. It definitely reduces weather helm and this cavitation problem, but if you get in irons, you've got nothing from the rudder in trying to swing the stern of the boat to get out. I've got the idea of twin rudders stuck my mind - the leeward one would stick deeper down as the boat heels, as opposed to the centerline rudder which gets raised up as it heels. I really enjoy getting out in a blow.
I'm pretty sure most or all of this isn't race / class legal but I don't race, tho I remember you said you were planning to.
No- I upgraded the outhaul (since I took these pics) to a 6:1 and bring the tail down the mast, to a double cam cleat on the deck. Almost sounds as if your outhaul jam cleat is worn out, or maybe the line is all crusted with salt/mud or something. I'm a big fan of more purchase in the outhaul + especially the vang - I can trim them under load. I can take a lot of belly + power out of the sail in a blow or a gust with the vang, which definitely helps me keep it right-side up.
nice - well you should have a ball with this thing. I think old Lasers are the most fun for the least $$ and least hours messing with them, of almost anything around.
Now this is a bit off topic, but I can't let this go uncommented... again.What's nice is I mainly do Club racing so class legal doesn't matter.
Now this is a bit off topic, but I can't let this go uncommented... again.
Club racing is racing. And when you're racing, you need rules to govern it - not only the racing rules "themselves" (such as right-of-way rules), but equipment rules (class or handicap rules), too.
When racing, your boat has to be legal. Please, never use the "I only club race" excuse for illegal modifications or using fake parts.
Yes, that black line is just a marker tracing the shape of the "standard" rudder to show the difference. And when I first did this and brought up the idea of an improved rudder to the Laser Class, it started a veritable shitstorm, which got pretty interesting. (Fred Schroth might remember this?) Anyway, I backed off my soapbox then and have been sailing happily without weather helm ever since. And, of course, I do not race.I'm not worried about the thread hijack as it is interesting, but if it's against forum policy, please post it again and I'll join in the conversation. I like the thought that the Laser designer said that he'd have changed the rudder if he were to do it over again. Seems like this is more in his spirit
Yup, quite a difference in the weather helm department. Here's my Laser rudder. Now vertical.I took a Hobie 16 rudder and made it fit the Laser Rudder head. And tweaked it to be more vertical. That, and the fact that it bites about 5" longer, has eliminated that annoying weather helm.
Do yourself a favor and flip the mast. It's a 10 minutes job and will save you a sail repair and a new mast down the line.2 rivets, I misspoke. My mast has no bend, so I guess I should keep an eye on it and end for end it when it does?
Chances are your gudgeons are worn out and you have play in your rudder. Change the gudgeons and your tiller won't hit the cleat anymore.I've got a real old square aluminum tiller that's pretty stiff, and it rides like an inch or more above the deck. It does hang up sometimes on the jam cleat for the traveller, which is taller and sits on the forward edge of the after deck.
... gudgeons worn out ...
E
Do yourself a favor and flip the mast. It's a 10 minutes job and will save you a sail repair and a new mast down the line.
E
Without doing the math my guess that a flip will reduce the "effective wear with 80-90%.Excellent point. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. How long will a flipped mast last before needing to be replaced?
Without doing the math my guess that a flip will reduce the "effective wear with 80-90%.
Radically reducing the pulling stress on rivetholes adds to that, so my guess is that the mast will have as much or more saling left after a flip then it would have had in total with 2 rivets, without the flip.
Thats the really tricky one. For those who abuse masts sailing 2block and supervanging in hard wind maybe Steve Cockerills pointer is the limmit, that an aluminum spar can only be straightened 9 times from plastic deformation, the last one then as preparation for flipping.Haha, funny, but I would have answered the same. I guess a better question would be "how long would you sail with a new upper before flipping it?"
Thats the really tricky one. For those who abuse masts sailing 2block and supervanging in hard wind maybe Steve Cockerills pointer is the limmit, that an aluminum spar can only be straightened 9 times from plastic deformation, the last one then as preparation for flipping.
At the other end there is little reason not to, if it could be the original top mast and the hull is past middle age. One could also remove the collar and look for cracks.
As said before, multiple rivets is a reason by itself. Being heavy slows the boat and increase the loads and a strong hiker also shortens the mast life.
Interesting to hear from more experienced laserite's