No dude I appreciate the feedback. Thank you!Whatever.
Cascadian wanted to find out what the rudder actually felt like from someone who had sailed one. I have.
I threw in the keelboard for good measure.
I think I agree with Pippins. The rudder and daggerboard shouldn’t have effect on heeling. My question is - if you can point higher as a result of these blades, would the heeling forces be less perpendicular to the boat and more from forward, reducing the heeling of the boat and lessening the need to hike?The boat heels less (wants to sail flatter), but it's faster, no doubt.
My wife noticed the difference in heel from shore.
As I recall none of the countries aside from the US voted for the new rudder. So the vote was like 10-1 against the change.Very similar to what andyatos did earlier:
Picture Of My New Vertical Rudder
Took my old mahogany daggerboard that I was no longer using and re-purposed it as a vertical rudder. Photo below. Features include... - The trailing edge of the old daggerboard is now the leading edge of the new rudder. - Fully glassed the rudder head. So no chance of cracks in the wood...sailingforums.com
Old timers will remember that (about ten years ago) the class (ISCA) had a long fight about changing the rudder angle. Ultimately, the proposal was not accepted although just about all the racers felt it would be an improvement. The reason for the rejection (as I recall) was that it would be too expensive/cumbersome for those sailing in other countries. Not a very strong argument, IMHO.
I bought one of the first AeroSouth rudders and it did break after just a few outings. I contacted them and they noted that they had improved the design to address that, and sent me a new one free of charge. I have had it now for 3 years and I love it. It reduces the weather helm tremendously. My only complaint is that it is so long that it kicks up while I am still a several yards from shore and I lose steering before I want to.Yeah the Aerosouth looks a little skinny an an area that has a lot of torsion.
Thank you for experimenting on the rudder design and sharing your experiences!Me too. That's why I made this.
And here's a sailing report from the first day I went sailing with it.
Cheers,
- Andy
I have both the official AeroSouth rudder that I use on my Sunfish and Super Sunfish, and more recently I bought the shorter knockoff for my wife's Minifish and I noticed the same problem that you described where the knockoff seems to pop up too easily. I think the hole where the pin goes that holds the spring should be further back to create more tension on the spring.I have a knockoff of the aero south rudder that I bought on eBay. Makes for a lighter helm, and has better bite when the boat heels over on big gusts. It has accidentally kicked up on me a time or two, not sure if it hit a seaweed tangle.
Also I get a hum at speed. The daggerboard already does that, I think this rudder does it too.
I'm probably going to go back to the standard rudder just to compare the feel.
Andy, when you get a chance, I'd like to see your setup for your outhaul and cuningham lines. Curious as to how you get the 3:1 and 4:1 advantage without the lines getting all bunched up in the end cap.From looking at the pictures of your sail, cunningham and outhaul I think there's two possibilities. First, from what I can see, you've got a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage on your cunningham. Can't quite tell with your outhaul but looks like 2 to 1 also? As I remember, I've got 3 to 1 on my cunningham and at least 4 to one on my outhaul.
So, I'm able to pull quite a lot of tension through my luff and the lower 3rd of the sail. ....
I don't think I have fully understood this point until now, when you explained it so clearly. Thank you! AreoSouth claims that their rudder also has less drag, which I feel is true, though it is difficult to compare even on the same day when swapping out rudders considering there are so many other variables that affect speed.<snip>
The Aerosouth rudder doesn't affect weather helm so much as it effects effort to counteract the weather helm. The center of effort of the rudder on a sunfish rudder is ten or twelve inches behind the axis of the rudder pin. The Aerosouth rudder moves this center of effort to more inline with the rudder axis. If you want a rudder with even less effort you'd add area to the rudder ahead of the rudder axis to create a more "balanced" rudder.
I will do that. I may be able to take pictures/shoot video tomorrow. Stand by!Andy, when you get a chance, I'd like to see your setup for your outhaul and cuningham lines. Curious as to how you get the 3:1 and 4:1 advantage without the lines getting all bunched up in the end cap.
Hi Weston, Pippins just answered your 3:1 and 4:1 questions for me with his recent post with pictures. My set up is similar to what he describes with "3 to 1 on the boom with an additional 2 to 1 at the sail". The difference is mine is more complex because I wanted to see what the friction would be like with pulleys/blocks almost everywhere.Andy, when you get a chance, I'd like to see your setup for your outhaul and cuningham lines. Curious as to how you get the 3:1 and 4:1 advantage without the lines getting all bunched up in the end cap.
@Riv , load on the tiller is weather helm by definition. When you let go of the tiller of the boat rounds up to the wind you have weather helm, if it drives down you have lee helm. The direction of load on the tiller is letting you know what face of the rudder is working, and the amount of force you feel is an indirect measurement of the angle of attack AoA of the rudder.Before you do anything else make sure you are not seeing load on the tiller as weather helm.
On my Laser I make a mark in the middle of the back of the cockpit so I can check that the tiller is centralised. If your boat is going straight with the tiller in the middle and the with a heavy load on the tiller that's manageable. If you want to reduce the load on the rudder then you have to move that load to the dagger board by moving the rig forwards.
Where's the edit button, brain fart here, this isn't cumulative. I'll still stick by 2 degrees AoA as a reasonable number for a sunfish rudder.The rudder tends to operate at a slightly higher AoA like maybe 1.5 degrees, as such you can expect 2 or 3 degrees deflection of the rudder head from the hull.
I do, and they don't.“I almost always sail with the goose neck really forward like 10 to 12 inches and rarely ever father aft then 14 inches.”
I don’t mean to be snarky, but if you attend a Sunfish regatta with good sailors, it’s blowing maybe 17-20, and you have your gooseneck like that, you will find that the good sailors leave you in the dust upwind. Their goosenecks will be back around 17-19.
Please show some results. If you are correct, you should go to the North Americans and you will win.I do, and they don't.
@beldar boathead, your initial response was snarky, your follow-up response was condescending. I will cede that my response to your comment was not constructive. At no point did I suggest my set up would work for everyone, just an interesting observation I have noticed from my own racing (successfully at times) over the past 35 plus years. I come here to share my thoughts, experience and joy in sailing, and not to stroke my ego. Feel free to review my posts on this forum and show me a post where I was blatantly disrespectful to someone else.Please show some results. If you are correct, you should go to the North Americans and you will win.
Actually, I thought your reply to my comments was disrespectful, but I didn't have a hissy fit, I just withdrew.@beldar boathead, your initial response was snarky, your follow-up response was condescending. I will cede that my response to your comment was not constructive. At no point did I suggest my set up would work for everyone, just an interesting observation I have noticed from my own racing (successfully at times) over the past 35 plus years. I come here to share my thoughts, experience and joy in sailing, and not to stroke my ego. Feel free to review my posts on this forum and show me a post where I was blatantly disrespectful to someone else.
I have both the AeroSouth rudder, and an imitation one off of eBay. I’ve had the same problem with the imitation one kicking up too easily. I don’t think they got the geometry right for the positioning of the pre-drilled holes for the spring peg. I’ve never had a problem with the AeroSouth rudder kicking up and I absolutely love how light it feels on the tiller. Molly, complaint with it versus the factory router is its depth. It makes it harder to keep the rudder in the water while you’re coming into shore.I have a knockoff of the aero south rudder that I bought on eBay. Makes for a lighter helm, and has better bite when the boat heels over on big gusts. It has accidentally kicked up on me a time or two, not sure if it hit a seaweed tangle.
Also I get a hum at speed. The daggerboard already does that, I think this rudder does it too.
I'm probably going to go back to the standard rudder just to compare the feel.
Actually, I was able to see your Cunningham and outhaul configuration using micro blocks on your recent Russian river video.. That was very helpful. Thank you.Hi Weston, Pippins just answered your 3:1 and 4:1 questions for me with his recent post with pictures. My set up is similar to what he describes with "3 to 1 on the boom with an additional 2 to 1 at the sail". The difference is mine is more complex because I wanted to see what the friction would be like with pulleys/blocks almost everywhere.
If you still would like to see pictures of my set up, I'll take some and post them for you. But if you are looking for a simple and less expensive arrangement that does what mine does, just copy Pippins' set up.
Cheers,
- Andy
How far below the transom do the the Aero and Ebay vertical rudders hang? Thanks in advance!
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