Leaky Laser: advice sought

T

takingonwater

New Member
I did some repair work on my boat this past month, hoping that by sealing the large hole in the hull, I'd stopped the problem of taking on a fair amount of water every time I was out sailing. Now that she's "fixed" and repainted, I'm still quite perplexed by the amount of water pouring out of the drain at the end of each session. I don't know the actual amount in the boat, but I'm generally waiting about 4-5 minutes for it all to drain out. :eek:

Does anyone have experience with water getting into the hull? Is it possilbly getting through the seam between hull and deck? Or is it possibly more insidious, like the space between the screws holding on the rudder rig?

Any experience, and tips on identifying the leak(s) / how to fix them would be greatly appreciated!! :D
 
check your mast step. check your centerboard well. check your cockpit for cracks and also around the bailer. are you confident about the "large hole"? where was that located on the boat ?
taking on that much water is the sign of a sizable hole/leak. you gotta fix it before you go out again, you also should let the boat dry out completely. sailing with that much water in the hull in medium to heavy conditions will put alot of stress and pressure on your hull and rig.
 
Stick has the right idea. Place the boat on an even keel (fore and aft as well as beam-to-beam) and fill the mast step w/ water. Judging by the amount of water you take on when you are sailing, you should see the level drop noticably. However, to be sure, mark the level and let the boat sit overnight.

The other logical place would be the thru-hull fitting area, But I would eliminate the mast step first.

Lastly, I am intrigued by the "big hole" you fixed. Can you provide more detail and pics?
 
Stick:

Yeah, good stuff. The hole was in the hull just below the deck/hull seal. I patched it full of resin, let it dry, then sanded, then 3 layers of fiberglass and resin, sanded and painted. I feel pretty confident that the leak is coming from somewhere else. I will take a better survey and check back. My bro-in-law had the idea of compressed air into the drain and looking for the leak that way. Seems a bit Rube Goldberg to me... "man killed by exploding dinghy"... a last resort.:eek:
 
Hey Bungo Pete, good on ya for the mast step idea. Sounds easier than compressed air in the hull. I'll try this and provide pix if I can. Cheers.
 
While it would be unlikely that a man could be killed by an exploding Laser, you stand a very good chance of killing your boat. Never, ever even think about pressurizing the hull like that! Even momentary pressure could break the hull/deck joint along the gunwale or flex the deck such that it begins to delaminate. You could also do internal damage which would make your problem worse.

First of all, does the boat have an inspection port? Secondly, what is the year? Thirdly, is there a bronze bushing between the cockpit drain and the bottom of the hull?
 
People do use pressure to find leaks all the time.

1. Soap the boat up.

2. Use a shop vacuum cleaner set to blow instead of suck.

3. Put the output hose close to but not touching the drain. (Say 1/2" away.)

4. That will induce just enough pressure to make soap bubbles at you leak point, without blowing the deck off the hull.
 
Okay, so shoving a tube of compressed air into your Laser is a bad idea, while a milder version of this concept is good for detecting cracks/holes. Good to know for later. Thanks Moose et al.

Now, backtracking a bit here, I did use Stick & Bungo's earlier advice and filled up the mast step to leave it overnight. Problem was, I COULDN'T FILL UP THE MAST STEP!!! In other words, the damn thing is leaking like a sieve!!!:mad: The crack must be about 1 or 2 inches from the bottom since the water level stays at that level. It was hard to see (partly because it was getting dark, partly because I had a 3 year old tugging at my sleeve) but I don't yet know if it is cracked or worn away or what. I pulled the boat into the hangar and will do a better check tomorrow. This may explain why the water issue was worse in big waves . Duh.

Bungo, I will get the vintage of the boat tomorrow. I would guess 80s, but I am technically not the owner. My bro-in-law has let me sail this craft for over 10 years, and I'm finally paying him back by doing maintenance, tho as you can tell, this is a learning process. I'll try to see about the bailer fitting you described, too.

As for an inspection port... where am I looking for this? I don't believe it exists on this boat, but I don't know what I'm looking for.
 
Inspection ports are approx 6" circles with a lid that can be removed - they are present if someone had done prior repairs to the boat and allow access to the hull interior. Relatively easy to install and readily available. You seem to have found the leak and would need to install a mast step repair kit. There's good info on doing that if you search. One kit shown here http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d90000/e87207.asp
 
Thanks. :cool: Looks like I'll be replacing the mast step then. It would make sense to install an inspection port at the same time, no? Are these added to the deck portion of the mast step replacement, or do you put them in the old deck? Second question: how big a job is the mast step replacement. Could I do it over a weekend?
 
Whoa, you don't need the mast step replacement kit for a cracked tube. That's like treating a headache with a lobotomy. Those are for when the mast has literally ripped the step out of the deck.

The really short cliff's notes version of what you want to do is:

1. Cut a new inspection port hole in the deck (off center) and install an inspection port

2. Using the hole you just cut for access, use resin and fiberglass cloth tape to reinforce, reseat, and seal the mast step tube from inside the boat.

Search this forum for mast step leak for many more threads with photos where folks have done this repair.
 
Hey bjmoose that's good news, especially since, upon further inspection, it looks like pebbles or sand have gotten down into the step and ground a bunch of holes at the very bottom. The lazy approach would be to jam a bunch of sticky resin down into the holes, let it dry, then add a more liquidy blend of resin to top it half an inch from the bottom of the well.

I have a feeling you will say, don't do this. Just cut an inspection hole and work from there. Let me know what is best.
 
I don't have any particular links in mind.

Don't add half an inch of bog to the bottom of the mast step, that's too much and it'll change the sailing characteristics. A little resin, some 5200, and a mast step wear plate should do the trick here. The main trick in putting anything down there is to keep from sticking it all over the sides of the mast step.
 
Thanks bjmoose. I'm gonna try it. I'm letting the boat dry out now. I will cut some teflon once I've sealed the foot. I may not get to this until the winter. I will let you know how it turns out.

LQT420: great link! Good visuals of the process, plus what the step looks like inside, including donut. Also, inspection port and the gasket fitting for it.
 
Hello Again:
Sorry for the lack of replies as I was in Boston for a couple of days. Mr. Moose (sorry, I was a fan of Capt. Kangaroo), is correct that you can use the the method he described for finding small leaks. However, when you said compressed air, I took it literally. Also, I felt that considering the amount of water coming in, that this was not a small leak.

As for the repair itself, you have already been advised that this is something to be fixed from the inside, and I concur. You should use a Viking 5" inspection port, which is available from APS. I am told that these work best for older boats, and I have had good experience with them. The port should be placed abeam or slightly forward of the step. This is because it is most likely leaking on the bottom forward half of the tube. There are a number of threads regarding placement and installation, so run a search before you begin. Also, if you are going to invest in a hole saw, please be advised that you will need a 5½" and not a 5". This being said, once you see the cost of one, you will probably want to use a good reciprocating saw. As for the how-to, the Schroth Fiberglass link is what you should use as a guide.

Hope this helps.
 
Well, I was half joking about the compressed air, but got steered clear of doing something that would win the Darwin Award.

Cheers, Bungo!
 
Okay, Bungo. One question: isn't it better to maintain the boat's integrity by not installing a port unless you really have to? In other words, what about attempting an external fix (not really external, since the resin will run into the cracks of the foot) and if it fails, cut your boat.

I feel a wave of controversy building already...
 
There are many differing opinions regarding the Pros & Cons of putting an inspection port or two, and I will give you my two cents.

A properly installed port will actually become part of the structure, and because it is round, it does not create stress risers like square corners would do. This why you don't see cracks around ports unless they have been forced directly inward or outward. Without doing what is called finite element analysis, I cannot say how much or if any of the deck stiffness is compromised if you install a port. I would say it would be minimal change in the structure. IMHO, those who advise against ports either had a bad experience or are listening to an old wives' tale. The worst case scenario with ports is that they are put in a cored deck and not sealed properly and the deck delaminates. If it is properly installed, this will not happen. There are many upsides to having a port or two. First, in your case it is the opportunity to make this mast step repair correctly. Secondly, you can inspect the boat further via the use of a digital camera. Thirdly, if it is near the cockpit, you can carry gear in a fat bag. I always carry an extra piece of line and in some cases, my spray top. Last and certainly not least, you can dry out the instide of the boat, which I firmly believe will lengthen its life.

I have three in my 1979 Laser. The forward one is so I could inspect the mast step, and the after two were necessary to repair the cockpit/hull separation (see link below). Hope this helps.

http://www.laserforum.org/just-bought-1979-laser-t6507.html?t=6507&highlight=1979+Laser
 
:cool: Cheers. That's a great post, complete with link to excellent photos of the inspection port installation. I can see a port sure speeds up the drying process and you can easily tell if the inside of the boat is dry. I like the added bonus of boat storage, too.
 
Okay. I figured I'd blog the process here and provide photos when I can.

Phase 1: This is the long part. I'm giving the boat a few months to completely dry. I generally sail from Bowen Island, BC, but mostly spend summers there, so I expect I'll get to the next phase at Thanksgiving.
 
Check the cockpit bailer seal! I had a friend nearly sink a Laser that had a broken seal between the outer hull and the cockpit drain. The autobailer plate made it impossible to notice, but once removed there was clearly no seal around the hole in the hull and the conduit that connects the hole to the cockpit. His seal was completely gone and the boat took about 15 minutes to drain. You could have a damaged seal, sail for a couple of hours and take on the ammount of water you are talking about...
 
Thanks, HIYC! I'm not near the boat now, but will check it next time. "Luckily" the autobailer plate itself has needed replacement for years, which means easier to check. I haven't noticed anything, but to be honest, I need to do some research about what a damaged seal looks like. I have felt the piping in between cockpit and hull, and there were no obvious cracks to the metal... but.... ??
 
I found the boats are pretty darn sensitive to pressure and will 'inflate' rather easily. Careful not to overpressurize them when hunting for leaks with electric pumps. They swell up like a tick rather easily. With two people, have one manually blow in the drain plug (it only takes about four breathes to do the job.) Have someone hit the key spots with a soapy water soln. I found my leak at the cockpit drain this way. This is one of the few places the hull and deck sections join so it actively 'works' and is a common place to leak. The potential for overpressurizing the boat has caused me to be sure the drain plug is open when the boat sits in the sun.


takingonwater said:
I did some repair work on my boat this past month, hoping that by sealing the large hole in the hull, I'd stopped the problem of taking on a fair amount of water every time I was out sailing. Now that she's "fixed" and repainted, I'm still quite perplexed by the amount of water pouring out of the drain at the end of each session. I don't know the actual amount in the boat, but I'm generally waiting about 4-5 minutes for it all to drain out. :eek:

Does anyone have experience with water getting into the hull? Is it possilbly getting through the seam between hull and deck? Or is it possibly more insidious, like the space between the screws holding on the rudder rig?

Any experience, and tips on identifying the leak(s) / how to fix them would be greatly appreciated!! :D
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