Sharing the Finish Line

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
This thread has nothing to do with politics or the Association. I am interested in playing with Lasers in large groups and having that play continue. I don't give a hoot whether any of the ideas promoted or suggested in this thread would be unworkable for the Olympians or international champions as I really don't care if we even have Olympics or world championships.
I would like to have more sailors participate in races where they have a good chance of finishing next to another competitor. I would love to see every person who rigs for a race have the opportunity to sail side by side with at least one and hopefully ten sailors at every place all around the course.
I am seeking ways to allow more sailors to feel and enjoy the thrill of sailing in competition.
Some seed thoughts:
1. Smaller folks who sail Lasers are often more coordinated and better boat handlers than old guys like me. I believe the short course racing allows the smaller folks to use those skills.
2. Long races in light winds favor small folks and long races in heavy winds favor larger sailors.
3. In all but the 4 to 10 knot wind range he race committee can manage the fleet in a small way by adding down wind to help smaller sailors and adding upwind to aid the larger sailors.
4. Shifty conditions usually aid the older sailors but sailing too close to weather shores brings coordination back to the equasion and shoves the old guys back.
5. If Radials are for folks under 75 kilos and Lasers ideal weight is only 80 kilos, the competitive sailing weight zone for Lasers is really not very large. If there is a way for the larger sailors to use muscle and size against the more ideally weighted competitors, perhaps we should look for ways to allow that. ( If I had to present that suggestion with any more soft of an approach I would ahve had to ask Bradley for a special blurry font.)
6. Can we do anything to keep the interest of mid fleet fun competitive sailors who are between the age of 19 and 30?
7. Are there new rules since the heyday of lasers which have detracted from the game we want to play?
a. Slam tacking inside the two boat length circle by weather marks used to be legal if you finished the tack before gettting whacked.
b. Offset marks remove lots of opportunity for competition and add a stupid dead zone
c. The reach mark and the pile of dumped boats
d. is the trapezoid course as stupid as I think it is?
8. Should we quit trying to tell every wimp he or she can sail a Laser or go back to telling people it is hard and separates the wimps from the sailors by eliminating the wimps?
9. Do we schedule huge campout parties at major regattas. Or restated: Do we schedule huge parties and hope a regatta breaks out?
10. Do we plan some regattas such that about half of the fleet just cannot take the distances and breeze and sails in before the "real sailors" finish all the races?

I don't know about the rest of you but I am becoming impatient with all the negative excuses and blather. After building thousands and fixing hundreds of boats and managing fleets, associations and regattas, I deserve to participate in another sailing boom before I am too old to play in and appreciate the game. ( Every living creature should have that opportunity)
Last time we had a Laser sailing boom there were no answering machines, no cell phones, few decent yacht clubs with decent showers, no Spectra, no hiking pants, no "new rigging," sails were 3.2 ounce, no email, no websites, no neoprene boots, no Gore Tex tops, no Powerbars, no Gatorade, no cd players for the road, and traveler eyes were cheap plastic. About the only thing that was more convenient in the 1970s was the drain plug. They were all the same but I already wrote about that elsewhere.

There are over 100,000,000 available people in the US alone who were not even around last time we had a Laser sailing boom.
What exactly can we do or try to get the North American new boat sales rate up to at least 10,000 per year again?
 
gouvernail said:
Last time we had a Laser sailing boom there were no answering machines, no cell phones, few decent yacht clubs with decent showers, no Spectra, no hiking pants, no "new rigging," sails were 3.2 ounce, no email, no websites, no neoprene boots, no Gore Tex tops, no Powerbars, no Gatorade, no cd players for the road, and traveler eyes were cheap plastic. About the only thing that was more convenient in the 1970s was the drain plug. They were all the same but I already wrote about that elsewhere.

The statements above are maybe why Lasering has fallen off. It's not simple anymore. All the gear is expensive and it takes some thought and investigation to decide what the right equipment is. Who has time for that when they are trying to figure out how to program their answering machine, cell phone, and yikes, vcr? I've seen a few desperate posts here on TLF on what gear to buy. In the old video "Hot yachts, cold water" they all look groovy sailing in their bell bottom jeans.

Actually, I don't entirely believe what I've written above. I like the convenience of the new rigging and technical clothes that keep me dry and warm. Maybe it's just not for everyone, though, and it is expensive.

Sailing in general has fallen off, not just Laser sailing. Our club has a marketing campaign right now to get new members, and if you can figure this one out, Fred, we'll be listening. One thing I've noted is that there is a lack of 20 and 30 year olds at the club. I hear that the ones who have discretionary money are out playing golf. The rest are tired lost souls sitting in front of TVs and video games.

What we need to draw them in is publicity, because sailing is way more fun than golf. Yeah, it's gratifying to see your ball fly a couple hundred yards, but it's heartknocking to be off the starting line first, to cover your opponent, get an inside overlap at the mark, to fly to the finish in 15 knots of breeze. The Laser Sailor should not be a magazine, it should be a reality show.

Merrily
 
Wow. Thats a bit much of a rant to digest it all. I will say this. The last Laser Boom was in the early 90's when the boat was announced as an Olympic class. However, sail boat development and production in general has continued and I think some of the new skiffs may have detracted from some of the folks that would have ended up in a Laser. Laser has built and sold over 180,000 boats now. The radial class seems to be growing, but trying to have events in which a,b,c fleets are designated is not the answer as it would be a nightmare to manage for any RC and I think would ultimatly take away from the event. In my opinion, (for what its worth) the deal is this. You join the Laser class and sail a Laser because you love it. You know your ability and are comfortable with it. You know, (like most of us) that if you go to the US Nationals or something similar you will finish mid-fleet, but you enjoy jockying for a start position w/80 other boats and working through crowded mark roundings. You also like getting a look at the top 10 PRO's as they sail by you nearly a full leg ahead and you admire their ability and dedication to the boat. For me its like golf. I'll usually shoot an honest 105 or so score, which is a double/triple bogey average per hole, but I will usually birdie 1 or 2 holes per round. That keeps me from selling my clubs. A lot of people don't like to get beat up on and like to sail in smaller local fleets where they have the opportunity to put silver on the wall. There is nothing at all wrong with that. I think the biggest struggle to keep the local fleetas strong is to bring in new people and keep them interested. You can do this by having shore sessions on boat set up, rules, tactics, and beer. However, the sailor has to have some ability to get the boat around the course and improve on their own. Some people never can get it and if they are not happy just sailing the boat they will get frustrated finishing last, (somebody has to) and leave the class. The best thing we can do for those folks is try the help them sell their boat to someone that will keep it on the race course and perhaps buy a boat better suited for them, (just to keep them sailing or a member of your YC).

By the way. What are you wanting to accomplish with your post? Are you looking for ideas to boost your local sailing or for ways for everyone to get rewarded for participating in an event?
 
Merrily said:
Fred's post seemed long, but not a rant. Or were you referring to my reply?

Merrily

No. it was his. At the end he mentions he is "getting impatient" and it shows in the way he worded his post. Seemed like a bit of a rant to me. Anyway, I can't figure out what specifically he is looking for. Another reason why it seemed dlike a rant to me kinda like he was blowing off some steam?
 
Rob B said:
No. it was his. At the end he mentions he is "getting impatient" and it shows in the way he worded his post. Seemed like a bit of a rant to me. Anyway, I can't figure out what specifically he is looking for. Another reason why it seemed dlike a rant to me kinda like he was blowing off some steam?

Fred is a ?lovable? drama king! Yeah, he was blowing off some steam. Is that soo bad? It is a forum. I actually can't believe I'm defending him, cause sometimes he drives me nuts.

I think the things that he lists as causes of the dropoff in sailing are too convoluted. We need to draw in new people, and they don't know anything about the things he lists. We are competing with lots of other fun things to do, and I in no way meant to impugn golf. It is just a major competitor for discretionary dollars. If I had impetuously spend $5000 on golf clubs instead of a new Laser and trailer, I would probably be over on the golf forum right now and never heard of TLF.

Merrily
 
Merrily said:
Fred is a ?lovable? drama king! Yeah, he was blowing off some steam. Is that soo bad? It is a forum. I actually can't believe I'm defending him, cause sometimes he drives me nuts.

I think the things that he lists as causes of the dropoff in sailing are too convoluted. We need to draw in new people, and they don't know anything about the things he lists. We are competing with lots of other fun things to do, and I in no way meant to impugn golf. It is just a major competitor for discretionary dollars. If I had impetuously spend $5000 on golf clubs instead of a new Laser and trailer, I would probably be over on the golf forum right now and never heard of TLF.

Merrily

HA! I do hope you are not worried about your golf comment. I'm a "business golfer". I golf to make my customers feel better about their game! Who has the time to golf and sail anyway, (unless they are retired). Drawing new people is tough and has been for the last few oh 6 or so years due to the economy and a lot of folks wisely holding onto their disposable income dollars. Unfortunately, I'm not so wise. We have to make it fun and affordable to get "new" people or do a better job of retaining jr sailors once they go off to college.
 
Rob B said:
We have to make it fun and affordable to get "new" people or do a better job of retaining jr sailors once they go off to college.

Affordable, aye, there's the rub. Lasers seem to keep their value. Good for Laser owners, but not for those wanting to get in. People at my club are interested in Laser sailing, but look at the little boat, compared to the same price or less for a bigger used boat, and just can't make themselves get out the checkbook. My only hope is that Laser sailing is so much fun! That, and you don't have to rely on finding and training crew, which is what attracted me to it in the first place.
 
Merrily said:
Affordable, aye, there's the rub. Lasers seem to keep their value. Good for Laser owners, but not for those wanting to get in. People at my club are interested in Laser sailing, but look at the little boat, compared to the same price or less for a bigger used boat, and just can't make themselves get out the checkbook. My only hope is that Laser sailing is so much fun! That, and you don't have to rely on finding and training crew, which is what attracted me to it in the first place.


I hear you on the crew part! As I've become older and have less time to be on the water I find when I'm competing I have high expectations and want to do well. By myself, on my laser, I find I am much more relaxed around the course cause I don't have to worry about other folks doing their job on the boat and I don't have to worry about letting down a crew if I can suddenly not make a regatta. This is why I'm back in the laser after 6 years of J22 and JY15 sailing. This is my 4th laser since 1983. I just keep coming back to them! We are a fun crowd on the course and post race as well! If we could just get everyone else to understand that....
 
Merrily said:
The statements above are maybe why Lasering has fallen off. Merrily

I meant to say that sailing in general has fallen off. Apologies to those who are working hard to make Lasers the growing class that it is.

Merrily
 
Interesting ideas, Gouvernail.

A few comments for what they're worth.

"2. Long races in light winds favor small folks and long races in heavy winds favor larger sailors."

Not sure, the Masters here in Australia tend to not like too many races in 20+ knots, and the kids tend to be small but fit. Maybe this varies with location??

"4. Shifty conditions usually aid the older sailors but sailing too close to weather shores brings coordination back to the equasion and shoves the old guys back."

I'm in my 40s but find the coordination's OK if (big "if") I train specifically on tacking etc rather than just racing.

"5. If Radials are for folks under 75 kilos and Lasers ideal weight is only 80 kilos, the competitive sailing weight zone for Lasers is really not very large. If there is a way for the larger sailors to use muscle and size against the more ideally weighted competitors, perhaps we should look for ways to allow that."

I still remember my first Laser regatta. Light airs (3-8 knots) sloppy sea. Winner - 194 lb. Second - 172 lb Olympic medallist and world's runner-up. Third - mid-fleet Olympic competitor. Fourth - District Radial champ sailing big rig, 156lb. Fifth, national Youth champ, about 160lb. Sixth (IIRC) the next year's World Youth champ, about 160lb.

That same guy won the big-rig districts at year, in one of the world's toughest districts, in light air. I was at a table at the presentation and people who finished in the 30s were blaming their performance on their weight - yet they were the same weight as the winner. They were a bit nonplussed when this was mentioned......

Last weekend we had our first championship of the season. 0-12 knots. A guy who finishes mid fleet at the Olympics was about 5th so it was a fairly good fleet.The winner was the same guy who won that first regatta, now a multiple Masters world champ and 187lb. If weight and age is such a problem, would a 187lb guy be able to win Masters worlds and take out top-ranked Olympians in light air????

That's just one example where it seems to me that the moral is that the Laser is NOT as weight sensitive as many people think. If people think that any problem is their sailing, then (if they can take the blow) they can get better. That's a positive message, although it can be hard to take.

I was pushed to 2nd in division by a 2004 Olympian about 29lb lighter. The nice part is that my speed was fine, my problem was 4 years out of the class and I can work on that as long as I don't blame my weight. They won because they sailed better, not because they were liughter.


6. Can we do anything to keep the interest of mid fleet fun competitive sailors who are between the age of 19 and 30?

Very good point. I know guys who were 3rd in the worlds in pre-Olympic days who say they couldn't "make it" while still having a life outside sailing these days. Therefore that bracket has moved to easier classes.

Do we need an amateur division for non-national squad guys in the Open bracket?


Your points about tacking rules and offset marks sound good.

"9. Do we schedule huge campout parties at major regattas. Or restated: Do we schedule huge parties and hope a regatta breaks out?"

YES!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been through a couple of booms (dinghies, windsurfing, small offshore boats). Seems there's a couple of problems. One is that it all gets too complicated. The other is that the guys who get in early can perform OK and feel good because there aren't too many other people who are more experienced than they are. People who get in 20 years later have a huge hurdle to climb because everyone is now so much more experienced.

Would more club-level coaching for beginners and intermediates help close that gap?
 
IMHO, the weight issue seems to come into play in the in winds over 6. Take two sailors equal in skills (tactics, boat handling, strategy, fitness etc). One weighs 215, the other weighs 155. In winds from 7-12, the lighter sailor has a definate advantage on all points of sail. From 13-15 things even out on W/L courses. Over 15, the heavy guy seems to come out on top if the course has equal upwind vs downwind sailing time.

When someone at one end or the other of the weight spectrum wins no matter what the conditions, from what I have observed, it's usually because they are better in one or more of the skills.

So, in order to increase participation and equalize competition, should the courses be setup to try and neutralize a weight advantage as governail suggests ? I weigh 210+ and race in mostly in under 15 conditions. I'd like to participate in a series where the course were setup to try and equalize things, but in the meantime, I'm happy to keep racing and use it as motivation to try and dump some weight.

I agree that coaching can help keep the particpation up. Even if it's simple things like helping them with setup between races (tighten the traveller, ease the outhaul, more cunningham etc..) it's helps bring the fleet together. Nothing worse then seeing the top guys hanging out in one area chatting amongst themselves, while the folks finishing in the back are scratching their heads wondering what they should do differently. Try buddying up or giving the top guys 3 boats each to help. Try "team" scoring (not team racing) in a fleet race for example.

I do have a slightly different perspective on the idea of rounding every mark with 10 boats. Maybe it's because I've been "spoiled" racing with a large fleet (40+ boats) a lot on short courses, but it becomes hard to avoid the bumper boat issues that come with the territory. Once in a while it's fun, when everyone in the pack is able to maintain control, but doing it race after race when some have questionable boat handling skills, or don't understand the rules can start to bring the moral of the fleet down. That's the time to have a longer race and let the fleet air out a bit.

How many fleets have loaner boats that a potential Laser sailor can use to find out how much fun they can have in the fleet ? I have a beater boat that I try and lend out a couple of days during our season. A couple of the folks have gone on to join and pick up their own boats.

The cost of participation is another sore spot for me. I'm not talking about buying the boat, as someone else pointed out, the resale value is pretty good, instead I'm talking about being able to sail the darn thing somewhere. Yacht club membership fees around my area are not geared towards someone who has to get a second job to buy a new Laser sail. Another thread points out how the Aussies do it with their "sailing clubs" vs a "Yacht Club" - makes a lot of sense. Finding a public spot that encourages it's use with a minimal fee (free is always welcome) might be one solution - the gang up in Newport have that with 3rd Beach for summer sailing and Sail Newport for their frostbite season. Cedar Point fits in with that idea with their frostbite season as well. Is it a coincidence that these two fleets see 30-50 boats on the line during the frostbite season ?

Enough rambling from me, I look forward to reading more ideas...
 
PS - Getting old sucks, forgot this last little tidbit.
While racing and rounding marks with 10 boats can be fun, it's a bit of a challenge for RC at the finish line. We've had to go with a very short finish line, long enough for about 5 boats to cross at once. Even at that, when it's your turn for RC duty, by far the hardest part of the day is getting every finish recorded correctly.
 

Back
Top