What is the sail number?

[White Heat UK]

I have just bought a rather old laser, and want to verify the hull number.

There are no marks on the transom, and the serial number under the bow fairlead reads BAF162.

I guess this relates to the hull number in some way, but I just do not know how,

Anyone got any clues. On the inside of the cockpit at the back, there seems to be a place where an ID plate was attached, and the previous owner has said he sent this on to me, but as yet I have not received it. Are they replaceable?

Thanks for any help in advance

 

[LooserLu]

Hi 'White Heat UK',
"BAF 162" is not the sail/hullnumber. That's definitely an internal production code of the builder PSE (former Performance Sailcraft Europe Ltd, Banbury Oxfordsire, UK now called: "LaserPerformance").
I remember from one of the district journals of the last years of our district GER. There the former chairman of our district, Herman Cornelius, there told, it is punishable to remove the builders-sticker with the serialnumber. I can't say, if this is the same for the Laser-district UK, but the former owner of your Laser better should quick send you that sticker or he maybe gets trouble with PSE (if you contact PSE and tell them that story.) Another way is to contact the UKLA-Office. If you know more of the former owners, there is a likelihood, they have some informations about the history of your Laser (and from this view also of the original sailnumber), because perhaps one of the former owners of your Laser in former times did order the so called "Record of Origin / Measurement Card" from the UKLA-Office.

At very old hulls from PSE (~ sailnumber 35000 or less) I remember, I have seen that the position of the sailnumber, printed into the gelcoat of the hull, not was the boweye or the transom, but the rear wall of the cockpit, under the fixing of the hikingstrap.

Hope that helps

LooserLu

 

[scullygirl]

On the Laser Forum, go to TLF Knowledge Center, then look under "FAQ". There is an article on serial numbers.

Mary

 

[White Heat UK]

Hi Many thanks for the advice. The good news is that the plate has turned up today, but not quite what I was expecting. It is a blue disc, embossed with "The ship and Boat Builders National Federation", with a serial number of 31482. The number seems to tally to a laser sail number. but I thought that this plate would have the details of Performance Sailcraft, who have been making Lasers in the UK.

I am not sure why the previous owner removed it, as I only noticed something missing after I got the boat home.

Not sure if this is a standard plate for a 1976 Laser. Anyone know for sure?

Mary Looked at the FAQ's as you suggested, but cannot tally with the number under the fairlead, boat must be too old!

 

[LooserLu]

... It is a blue disc, embossed with "The ship and Boat Builders National Federation", with a serial number of 31482. The number seems to tally to a laser sail number. but I thought that this plate would have the details of Performance Sailcraft, who have been making Lasers in the UK. ...

Hi, again.
I have some photos, that are perhaps useful, to find solutions for your question.


There exists a sort of official measurement sticker of the national sailing federation of the country you live in.
To explain the situation: At the Laserclass, this blue sticker is not really useful, because at the Laserclass, we have the so called "MC"="Measurement Certificate and Record of Origin"-card (personalized for the boat AND the owner) that we get from the Laser-district office (in your case: UKLA = UK Laser Association). Reason: The Laser is a very strict one-design-sailing-class, all boats (in theory ...) are equal. So, this blue sticker is not really a need, from side of view of the Laser class. But the national sailing federations (and at least the ISAF) also have much bureaucracy..., like the stereotypes do say. So, the Laser district-office not only sends you the "MC", if you order it from the Laser class, but they also send you the measurement sticker of the national sailing federation, that is this blue sticker.
See my photo "No.1". It shows such a blue measurement sticker of the German sailing federation "Deutscher Segler Verband". This sticker also shows the official sailnumber of my Laser ("46438" has been my old boat). At this photo you also see the sailing number "46438" printed by PSE into the hull at the gudgeon. So, Martin, that's the proof, if the blue sticker that you got, looks similar like mine and if the former owner did send you such a blue sticker (if it is really from that boat that you now own) with "31482", then this is the correct sailingnumber of your Laser.

...

Not sure if this is a standard plate for a 1976 Laser. Anyone know for sure?

...

Yes, that's correct. Martin, you are able to check that at your own. Klick to the following link (lasersailing.com is the main Laserstore of LaserPerfomance in the UK and also 1st level main Laserstore of LaserPerfomance for the continent Europe) and add your boat class and sailing number there.


http://www.lasersailing.com/boat-info/uk/introduction

... I am not sure why the previous owner removed it, as I only noticed something missing after I got the boat home. ....

Well that is easy to explain: It is not a "must" to glue that blue sticker to the transom. You may glue it there, but there is no duty to do so. The Laser is "special", we have the "MC" card. If one joins major races, one has to show to the measurers this "MC" of your Laser (and your "Member-card of the ILCA-Europe" and your sailing-licence to the RC). The measuerers of the Laserclass at major races not care for those blue measurement stickers. A lot of Laserites do not glue that blue measurement sticker to the boat (the transom of the laser is small).

This blue measurement sticker is not the official sticker of the original builder PSE that indentifies the Laser. Those official stickers do look different than that blue sticker. Your boat is from 1976, Martin, at that times such an official sticker of PSE did not exsist. Such stickers came much later, ~ mid of the 80ties, I guess. (See Photo "No. 2". It's taken of one of our Lasers at the club I sail at. That metal-sticker is bolted to the rear-wall of the cockpit. The sail number not is "20238", but "120238" (= 1985), because during the 80ties already over 100.000 Lasers have been produced worldwide. Now, PSE glues stickers to the cockpit like to see at "Photo No. 3" and "Photo No. 5". If one removes this sticker it is punishable here at GER.

The Lasers of PSE now also have a 2nd number, that came from the bureaucracy of the European Trade Union: The so called "Hull Indentification Number" "HIN" (See "Photo No. 4" and "Photo No. 6"). I don't know all of the secrets of that code, but this code a the transom identifies the Builder ("PSE"), the country of the builder ("GB"), the boat Type ("LS1" = this is a Laser 1 (Radial or Standard, no matter) and not "Laser 2") and the rest of that code also identifies the boat, I dont know that meaning, but it has nothing to do with the sailnumber.

At photo "No. 7", marked with a red arrow, you see that the boatbuilders have written an internal numer to the side-wall of the cockpit insid of the hull of my old Laser 46438. Exact that number also is printed into the gelcoat unter the boweye at the deck. I don't know why they have done this.

Ciao
LooserLu

 

[Horizon]

(See Photo "No. 2". It's taken of one of our Lasers at the club I sail at. That metal-sticker is bolted to the rear-wall of the cockpit. The sail number not is "20238", but "120238" (= 1985), because during the 80ties already over 100.000 Lasers have been produced worldwide.

The reason why the sticker on 120238 does not appear to have the full number on it, is because the "1" was preprinted in red on these stickers and that has faded away. The remaining numbers were then stamped or hand-etched onto the sticker.

See also the final 'photo of Laser 31915 where the number is stamped on the transom, just above the bottom gudgeon. Sometimes these numbers were obscured by the fitting itself, especially if they were later replaced with plastic fittings.

All the UK lasers I have had, numbers from 48000 to 100000 have all had the numbers stamped under the bow eye.

 

[LooserLu]

The reason why the sticker on 120238 does not appear to have the full number on it, is because the "1" was preprinted in red on these stickers and that has faded away. The remaining numbers were then stamped or hand-etched onto the sticker. ...

Thanks Horizon, thats the answer to one of the many open questions I had for this topic over the years, too.

... See also the final 'photo of Laser 31915 where the number is stamped on the transom, just above the bottom gudgeon. Sometimes these numbers were obscured by the fitting itself, especially if they were later replaced with plastic fittings. ..

If you view to my 1st photo (that with the blue measurement sticker) Horizon, the "46438" is stamped at the gudgeon, too. Sorry, there is a bit shaddow of the sun that hides that number a bit.

... All the UK lasers I have had, numbers from 48000 to 100000 have all had the numbers stamped under the bow eye.

Interesting. But why one also is able, to find this internal number under the boweye, that I mention above. I think often: Has PSE been afraid to glue a deck part that not fit to the right hull in the mould... however... Thanks Horizon.
Do you know more infos about the code of that newer Hull indentification number at the transom, also? It would me nice, too, to learn more about that number, here.

Ciao
LooserLu

 

[White Heat UK]

Guys,
Many thanks for going to trouble in getting the photos on the thread. It has helped me a lot.
What is most interesting is the number impressed just above the gudgeon, as my boat, being of similar age should have one there as well. I will look when I am at the club next.
I think I should then have the answer I need,
Thanks once again, what friendly and helpful guys you are!

 

[Horizon]

Lu, firstly apologies, as I didn't see your 'photo of the sail number on the transom - when I read your post the first time, I didn't mean to repeat what you had already shown.

I don't think I can add too much more to your knowledge of sail numbers, and I too would like to know more about the manufacturing number under the bow eye.

However, a few things I would point out generally to anybody finding out their sail number.

Firstly, the Laser FAQs whilst really detailed, are basically only applicable to hulls made in North America.

My knowledge of Laser hulls from both UK and Australia is that the sail number as shown in 'photos above was always on either the transom or under the bow eye - although sometimes these were obscured by the actual fitting.

This is in respect of older Lasers, say up to early to mid 80's when they started to use the stickers.

It was my understanding that for all factories, the sail number was moulded into either the hull or deck, but not both. This enabled them to weigh each individual unit and put them together to get an acceptable overall weight.

Through hatches in the deck, I have seen the weight written on the hull.

I have assumed that there was no standard of where to put the sail number by all the different factories producing Lasers. In the past they have been produced by factories in Canada, America, Uk, Ireland , Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Japan, Chile, Argentina (I think) and I have read of a Polish factory in one of the Laser books. Also, I had until recently, always thought there to have been a Swiss factory, but maybe it was just the main dealer for Europe, as I saw this sticker on a boat for sale on Ebay which is a little confusing.

(As an aside, I had always assumed the factory 'photos in "Laser Segeln etc" to be of this Swiss factory as Performance Sailcraft SA - Neachatel is credited in the front of the book. Perhaps you can confirm this?)

Anyway, I don't know how the sail numbers are allocated is now, although I think it is more regular than in the past.

However, it used to be that all the factories were allocated a block of sail numbers and kept this until it had built sufficient boats to fill its allocation. So a factory such as the Australian or Japanese one with a smaller market to service, would take a lot longer to use up an allocation of say 100 sail numbers.

I presume that the sail number allocation came / comes from either the ILCA office in UK or one of the factories (PSE?) has responsibility. Again, can anyone confirm this.

I think my Australian 86,000 Laser was therefore younger than an equivalently numbered UK boat.

I had thought that this system had ceased to be used with modern communications etc making it easier to keep all the factories supplied with up to date numbers, until the 2006 Laser Worlds in Korea made me reconsider. The sail numbers for those worlds were 190,000+, yet the sail numbers for the ISAF youth Worlds (in the UK) a few weeks before were 188,000+ and the 2007 Worlds in Cascias a year later only 191,000+. Therefore, I think that the boats built by Japan for the Korean worlds were perhaps allocated out of order, or maybe, being a smaller factory they took correspondingly longer to build and the guestimate of what sail number the rest of the world would be up to was over optimistic.

If you are interested in knowing the exact year of manaufacture of older Lasers, then some slight caution is needed using the Laser Centre's (UK) find your year of manufacture web page, at least for hulls up to about 1985.

For example, Laser 100,000 was built and heavily promoted in 1981, yet the sail number finder shows a year of 1982.

Similarly, the boats built by the Irish factory for the 1982 Sardinian Worlds were numbered 110,000+ but are given a year of 1983.

However, their records seem to be OK by about 1985.


Also, given that we are talking about boats in excess of 25 years old, an extra year is not really going to matter much either way.

One other thing to be aware of with the US numbering system is the use of a model year. For instance, in a couple of threads, Gouvernail has confirmed that the boats used for the 1983 Gulfport Worlds were 113,000+ yet the hull number was say Z1DB3014M84A indicating that they were 1984 "model year" boats, even though they were built in 1983.

I think I have probably created more questions than answers - but have now exhausted my knowledge!