Vang purchase poll

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by GeoffS, Jun 9, 2003.

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What purchase do you have on your vang?

  1. < 8:1

    7 vote(s)
    7.4%
  2. 8:1

    19 vote(s)
    20.2%
  3. 12:1

    14 vote(s)
    14.9%
  4. 15:1

    54 vote(s)
    57.4%
  1. GeoffS

    GeoffS Member

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    There's been discussion about the necessary purchase on a Laser vang. I was wondering what ratios people are using out there.

    There's a simple poll to answer, but it would probably be helpful if people would indicate why they choose their particular ratio.

    Cheers,

    Geoff Sobering
     
  2. will162878

    will162878 New Member

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    I have a standard new style vang as supplied by the manufacturers except I've adjusted it to a 12:1 system. I don't need any more purchase so more powerful systems are just more line to pull in and get tangled.
     
  3. Dave K

    Dave K New Member

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    I had noticed that last year a bunch of people were going with 10:1 on the new vangs by dropping a part out of the 3:1 on the top part of the cascase. This year most of the top 20 at Midwinters used full strength 15:1.
     
  4. will162878

    will162878 New Member

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    I can fine tune the vang downwind and on reaches with the 12:1 so is there any real need for 15:1?
     
  5. drLaser

    drLaser Member

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    No. Not for you (or me).

    But Lainie Pardey (ex ILCA NA Vice President) with bad wrists surely appreciates the 15:1, though.

    So do many 13 year olds on the 4.7 or Radial rigs.

    Do what's best for you, but realize that changing the power ratio changes the loads on the blocks and hence the Safe Working Load and Breaking Load of the vang system. The article comparing the Holt and Harken vangs in the "drLaser" website was offering the reliability implications of rigging these vangs in various power ratios other than 15:1. You can use the data and the methods therein (and in other related articles) to make sure your vang will perform reliably the way you rig yours.

    Shevy
     
  6. will162878

    will162878 New Member

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    Have there been many top section failures that can be reliably attributed to the 15:1 purchase?
     
  7. drLaser

    drLaser Member

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    Yes! Many!
    Two happened in front of my eyes, one in Istanbul and the other in Cesme (Turkey). One was a full rig, the other was a Radial.
    I heard about several more incidences in the US, too.

    A stopper knot on the vang cascade control line limiting how much you can pull in the vang is advised.

    Vanguard Sailboats Chairperson has made special cautionary remarks about related breakage matters (See about "Reliability of Vang Tang, Vang Strap and New Deck Plates with The New Rigging" in drLaser) : on Decenber 18, 2003, Chairperson Steve Ckark commented that "if you start seeing daylight between the top of the boom and the bottom of the sail, you ought to ease the vang a bit." The advice is also good for the welfare of your top mast.

    Shevy
     
  8. GeoffS

    GeoffS Member

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    Are there any commonalities among these failures?

    Is there a particular point in the race (or point of sail) where they occur? For example: upwind, reaching, downwind, just after rounding the windward mark, etc?

    Is there an "operator error" component (beyond pulling the vang on too hard)? Ex. forgetting to ease the vang after rounding the windward mark?

    Cheers,

    Geoff S.
     
  9. will162878

    will162878 New Member

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    The only top section failure I have heard about (from the sailor) was with the old kicker:

    He rounded the top mark with a very tight kicker but couldn't get it out of the jammer. A gust heeled him over and the boom end hit the water leading to his mast getting a lot shorter...
     
  10. GeoffS

    GeoffS Member

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    Comment on Will's posting of:
    > The only top section failure I have heard about (from the sailor) was with the old kicker:
    >
    > He rounded the top mark with a very tight kicker but couldn't get it out of the jammer.

    IMHO, that's one of the best reasons to get the new vang. Even with my free-running 8:1 vang, I can't release the vang (easily) from most up-wind settings after I round the windward mark. So, just when I'm in the worst traffic on the stbd. layline approaching the mark, I have to remember to reach forward and ease the vang, then sail the last bit of the windward leg without being able to ease the mainsheet... Ugh!

    Cheers,

    Geoff Sobering
    145234
     
  11. macwas16

    macwas16 New Member

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    That is a very good point Geoff. In medium to heavy air when rounding the weather mark, easing the vang will enable you to ease the mainsheet and bear off easier. And if you don't ease it at all, which sometimes can happen if it gets stuck, your boom will most likely hit the water causing you to go swimming in the middle of a fleet of boats accelerating downwind, or, as Will said...
     
  12. Mike94

    Mike94 New Member

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    why would you need anything like a 15:1 Vang? can't you just go work out and then build some upper body muscle to be able to pull it in, i run with a brand new 8:1 and it works fantastic i wish i woulda have went less than an 8:1 if i knew it was gonna be the way it is. Also where do you put all your line if your running a 15:1 doesn't that have to be making a mess all over your cockpit? but i am also 6'2" and 190" lbs and pretty well built so i guess i don't need it.
     
  13. macwas16

    macwas16 New Member

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    I good way I keep my line is to daisy chain it. This simply loops the line all together and makes it shorter with a handle to grab it and pull.
     
  14. Mike94

    Mike94 New Member

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    well if you daisy chain it that helps a lot but if you have to release it very fast for some odd reason in a rush you wouldn't be able to because the chain would get stuck in the block
     
  15. GeoffS

    GeoffS Member

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    I'm also using an 8:1 vang (old Holt cleat-block, but all turning points are pulleys). Normally, I get all the purchase I need, but yesterday I was sailing 20+ kn and had some trouble getting enough vang on upwind. I also have various tendon problems in my wrist and elbows, so that's part of the problem...

    The biggest issue I have (as mentioned above) is releasing the line out of the cleat when it's under load. If you're using of the the new cleat blocks from Harken or Holt, that probably isn't a problem. If you have the old cleat block, I'd love to know if you have any tips/tricks/techniques for releasing the vang after rounding the windward mark in med-heavy wind.

    Just BTW, if you're using the new vang hardware, I'd probably go for a 9:1 (3:1 primary, 3:1 cascade) instead of 8:1 (4:1 primary, 2:1 cascade) as I think the former reduces the load on the key-block sheeve by 50% and should allow it to run a bit more freely.

    Cheers,

    Geoff Sobering
    145234
     
  16. PeterPurple

    PeterPurple New Member

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    >> The only top section failure I have heard about (from the sailor) was with the old kicker:

    >> He rounded the top mark with a very tight kicker but couldn't get it out of the jammer. A gust heeled >> him over and the boom end hit the water leading to his mast getting a lot shorter...

    Why does this break the mast?
     
  17. will162878

    will162878 New Member

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    The boom and sail slamming into the water at high speed puts a lot of strain on the mast due to the deceleration. Add this to the already strong force on the mast due to the kicker/vang and any weaknesses in the mast (cracks etc) will be exploited and failure will follow. Also, as masts get older and get bent and unbent more and more, there is bound to be some metal fatigue (work hardening) of the aluminium. (Metals get harder the more they are bent and re-shaped so are more likely to crack.)
     
  18. sam173210

    sam173210 New Member

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    I use the 15 to 1. i feel that this is too much but it is much easier to get the correct tension in high winds or get the perfect tension downwind in a breeze
     
  19. AZ 8783

    AZ 8783 New Member

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    Alot of you say you don't need the 15:1 ratio. My question is what is the downside. More line in the cockpit... two more pounds of weight above deck?

    Seriously, in my opinion, the extra ease to adjust the sail is worth it. But, I would like to hear your reasons for the disadvantages.

    Thanks,

    Greg
     
  20. GeoffS

    GeoffS Member

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    I think it's mostly the extra line in the cockpit.

    I'm not sure why this is such a problem with the vang, though. I have an 8:1 vang and I think the max-on to max-ease line length difference is maybe 12 inches. I guess I could see how twice that might get to be a bother around the mainsheet block, etc.

    Cheers,

    Geoff S.
     

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