trouble pointing (bad sail?)

S

squeakywaffle

New Member
hey guys

I have been teaching myself to sail over the past three years in a laser, and this summer I have been participating in a weekly race down at my local sailing place. I have found that my skills are decent and my boat is performing well, except in one area... pointing.

I find that other lasers (not to mention every other kind of boat out there) are able to point 5-10 degrees further up than me. It doesn't matter what I do... I've tried all sorts of different combinations of outhaul, cunningham, vang, and even the traveler, but my boat still won't point in the same direction as everyone else's without pinching. My current favorite setup is medium cunningham, outhaul about the width of a hand off the end of the boom, a bit of vang, and the traveler fairly loose so the sail comes inboard a bit before it starts to move toward two-blocking. But still, everyone else points better than me.

I am starting to think it must be the sail... I have an 'Intensity' practice sail, while everyone else seems to have fairly new class sails. I am going to get out my old, old, old class sail next time I go and see if it makes any difference at all. It just seems like my sail isn't flat enough at the front edge where it meets the mast.

Anyone else find that the Intensity sail doesn't point well? Anyone have any other ideas? I really have tried everything I can think of short of getting a new sail and I'm starting to get a little frustrated. :confused: :mad:

edit to clarify:

It's not that my boat is slow- on the contrary, I am faster than most sailing downwind (running?) and reaching. It just won't point where everyone else points without pinching, no matter how I trim the sail (or so it seems to me, anyway... though there may be a magic combination I have missed). I usually finish in the middle of the pack despite this problem, so I am not worried that it might be a problem with my hull or boards or something like that.
 
try keeping the traveller full on and sheeting block to block, and if overpowered pinch. it also always appears as if the people in front of you are pointing higher but they actully are going at the same angle you are
 
matt182763 said:
try keeping the traveller full on and sheeting block to block, and if overpowered pinch. it also always appears as if the people in front of you are pointing higher but they actully are going at the same angle you are
Click to expand...

I love to sail in heavy air but these races seem to happen only in light to medium air, and I have never been overpowered (I weigh ~190 lbs). I was under the impression that sheeting block to block flattens the sail and depowers it, which is not what I need, although it does allow me to point a little higher (I tried it briefly).

I am pretty sure the people in front of me are pointing higher than me- when I start directly behind and quite close to another sailor, he will make it around a mark a hundred feet away... I will miss it by 5 or 10 feet. When I try to point where everyone else is pointing, my sail starts to pinch.
 
I am 180-185lb. The general rule I have is once there is enough wind for me to sit on the gunwhale (~5 knots) i am block-to-block or 1-3 inches off it.

The traveller is always as tight as possible but still allowing the mainsheet block to pass over my tiller when I tack.
 
Murphs said:
I am 180-185lb. The general rule I have is once there is enough wind for me to sit on the gunwhale (~5 knots) i am block-to-block or 1-3 inches off it.

The traveller is always as tight as possible but still allowing the mainsheet block to pass over my tiller when I tack.
Click to expand...

This is interesting, I guess I will try going block-to-block next time. I find it strange that nobody else around me is doing it, though.
 
It could be that you are slipping to leeward faster then everyone else making it look like they are pointing higher. Try and keep the hull flat or sightly heeled to windward up wind as this will reduce your drag on the rudder.

Also only put on enough cunningham to take out the creases from tack to mid mast. It sounds like you are putting too much on if it isn't flat by the mast. Only put it on when you start to get overpowered and can't get the boat flat.
Your kicker should be set so that when you are block-to-block, all the slack is taken out. Even when it gets too light to sail BTB leave the kicker as is. As it gets windier, start to put more on.

And Murphs is right, traveler as tight as possible (as long as it can cross the tiller).
 
"when I start directly behind and quite close to another sailor, he will make it around a mark a hundred feet away... I will miss it by 5 or 10 feet"

If you are in bad air you will not be able to point as high.
Fight to keep your air clear up the beat, and make sure you have 'some in the bank' on the layline if you have to follow the train to the mark.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm about to go try some of this stuff out.

I'm also getting out my old and busted class sail to see if it makes any difference.
 
I use an intensity sail for practice club racing. The sail points just as well as a class sail. If you tack directly behind another, (within 40 feet or less) boat you are going to get their dirty air and you will not sail as high as them.
 
Rob B said:
I use an intensity sail for practice club racing. The sail points just as well as a class sail. If you tack directly behind another, (within 40 feet or less) boat you are going to get their dirty air and you will not sail as high as them.
Click to expand...

I guess I should not have said that... I made sure I was not in their dirty air when I made this judgment. I have also compared my pointing ability to boats below me, above me, behind me, and across the course from me. They all point significantly better, even when they are in my dirty air.

When I sailed today with my old sail, believe it or not, I am quite sure my boat pointed significantly better. I did not have other boats to compare myself to (I will tomorrow) but I have sailed on the Intensity sail long enough to know when something is different. Some of the other tips you guys gave me here helped even more, but the class sail pointed better even when I had my sail set the way I am accustomed to doing it. I kept being surprised by how high I was pointing when I came about and my entire tacking technique was messed up by the smaller angle and time between the tacks.

I am sure few people here will believe me... this is the internet, after all. I don't mean to smear Intensity because I have heard nothing but good things about their stuff, but there is definitely something wrong with mine. Maybe I damaged it somehow myself, I don't know.

I'll bump this thread next monday when I race and know for sure. I expect my old sail to be all-around slower, and I might end up finishing further back than I do now, but I am 80% sure it's pointing better than the Intensity. :confused:
 
Make friends with the best sailor(s) in your club, go out sailing with him/her and have him watch you. That also helps a lot, especially when you take a couple of buoys with you and race to them.

hope that helps
 
I have an intensity that I use for club racing. I have also noticed that I dont tend to point as high as other Lasers.

However this is probably more down to my sailing style, I prefer to be slightly footed off than to stuff up.

It works for me, I came back to the class after a 2 years absence (sailing a different class) and won the club spring series.

Draft and cunningham makes the different I have found. I use very little cunningham unless I am overpowered (I am 185lb).
 
matt182763 said:
try keeping the traveller full on and sheeting block to block, and if overpowered pinch.
Click to expand...

Actually in a laser you don't ever want to pinch, except for brief moments when coming up a wave perhaps. Pinching will angle you higher but your boat will sideslip faster. In heavier air it is best to crank the vang, play the main to keep the boat flat, and constantly be feathering up and then bearing off to keep the boat pointing high without stalling.
 
I use an intensity saill for club races. my tw class sails are original with the boat I think(79) and are really just good for backups. I have never had a problem pointing with other boats. I really think that you need to be BTB and tight travler. And keep the boat with a very gently heel.
 
jeffers said:
Draft and cunningham makes the different I have found. I use very little cunningham unless I am overpowered (I am 185lb).
Click to expand...

I too use little cunningham (actually I usually just leave it off in light-medium air). I actually found that some cunningham makes my Intensity sail point a little better, though, so I started using it more.

My efforts to point better with the Intensity sail were actually almost completely concerned with minimizing the draft. I felt that the sail just had too much material at the luff, and this would cause a relatively deep draft right behind the mast. As you might expect, pointing upwind with this problem caused early flow separation and pretty much eliminated any real pointing ability. Try as I might, I couldn't fix the problem with any trim combination I came up with. BTB helped a bit (the mast bend helps to stretch out and flatten that material) but whatever makes the Intensity point almost as well as the next worst boat makes my old sail point much, much better than that.

I have been out sailing many times since I switched back to my class sail, including a marathon 7 hour sail today, and I am now 99% sure the sail was my problem. Who knows what was wrong with it... but it's really too bad. My old sail sucks. Again, I don't mean to badmouth Intensity... I've only heard good things about their stuff and I'm sure my sail is either a rare lemon or I've somehow damaged it.

This topic and all the replies have actually made me faster upwind, though, so thanks. :D
 
Do bear in mind that the Intensity sails are made of a thicker cloth that the standard rags so they will stretch differently as you use the controls.

If you are pinching when going slowly also remember that the foils will stall and the boat will slide sideways. Try bearing away a touch to get the foils worksing nicely and then bring the boat back up.

I find having a masthead burgee also helps as well as 3 sets of tell tales so you can see how the wind is flowing over the sail.

Some people can sail very well just by feel and looking at the sail (they are currently in Quingdao I believe) for us mere mortals use all the little tools that are there (but don't become fixated with them).

The other thing you might want to do is rig your boat on the land and get someone to shet the sail in and take a look at the leach. You may find the leech is 'hooking' and spoiling the flow off the trailing edge of the sail. This is much more prevelant upwind than offwind (in my experience).
 
The cunningham will help take the fullness out of the luff but the other thing it does is open the '4th corner' of the sail to allow excess power to 'exhaust'. Pulling a little cunningham on will help with the pointing but as already mentioned my sailing style is more fast and free.

The 4th corner is approximately 3/4 of the way up the leech (around the top batten).
 
I suggested this to someone else.

Check the topmast collar as mine slipped about 40mm due to a sheared pop rivet, and hence I couldn't bend the mast enough without the boom touching the deck.

Repostioining it made a big difference to mast bending and pointing
 
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