"recreational rig" outdated Portsmouth Rating

Discussion in 'Sunfish Talk' started by Jack H, Apr 14, 2006.

  1. Jack H

    Jack H Member

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    Does anyone use this rating? This year we may have Sunfish running the race rig and the rec rig and I was going to give the rec sailors a break if the racing crowd shows up. Have any of you used this rating?
     
  2. LAuman

    LAuman Member

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    We state that the two number system is long outdated, and we use the current rating for all. However, it's up to your group, and, if it'll get more boats out, you may want to do so. You could calculate what difference it makes if you record times.
     
  3. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    The 2006 Portsmouth ratings list shows only one entry for 'our' fish:
    Sunfish (Int.) = 99.6.

    What ratings are you contemplating and where did you find them?

    And BTW, things may get a bit complicated for boats with e.g., a wooden daggerboard and a 'race' sail (and there are other variations on this theme). Nevertheless, your approach may keep folks sailing older boats happy :) , although it may be difficult to keep all of the people happy all of the time :rolleyes:
     
  4. Jack H

    Jack H Member

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    I could have sworn that in the past there was a rating for a sunfish rec rig on the "centerboard inactive" list. Its not there now. Oh well I guess everyone gets the same number.
     
  5. mike4947

    mike4947 Member

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    There was at one time an attempt to rate both the race and recreational boats.
    Problem was the variations. Is a Rec boat only with wooden daggerboard and rec sail and what happens when someone has a plastic daggerboard and a rec sail, or a wooden daggerboard and a race sail? The folks that do the ratings found out folks weren't listing how the boats were equipped. So the Rec rating was dropped.
    Last rating for a "full" recreational boat (wooden dagger board and recreatinoal sail) was 105.
     
  6. LAuman

    LAuman Member

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    They're right. It doesn't make sense to accomodate such an undefined class. The Moth class (my personal favorite boat) DOES define a "vintage" subdivision, but there's a distinct cutoff by year of construction. . . and it's pretty old. . . and no substitutions, except for new sails (tightly controlled measurements), are permitted.
    Anyway, do what you need to do to get boats out, but don't reward sharp practice.
     
  7. scap114

    scap114 Member

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    A lot depends on the fleet you have. The best case would be if you had enough of each boat to run two divisions-Race and Recreational. If you do not, and run them together the race rigged boats should have an advantage. The advantage for the 'race rigged' by numbers, in a one hour race, is about 3 minutes. The worse that can happen is that the recreational sailors feel the disadvantage makes them uncompetitive and they lose interest in racing. This can be a disaster for a fleet.
    I would, if you do not have enough of the 'race rigged' boats to seperate the fleet, handicap the fleet. It is easier to do this before the season, rather than changing the rules in mid-season. This does take a bit more work, as you have to record each boats elasped time from the start of the race to their finish and then do the calculations.
    One other way, although not as 'scientific' is to stager the start. In a race that would normally take the top recreational boat one hour to finish, start the 'recreational fleet' fleet 3 minutes ahead of the "race rigged" fleet. This puts the slower boats in clear wind (with a true handicap start, the slower boats usually end up sailing in 'dirty air') with the faster boats playing 'catch up'. The finish is recorded exactly as the boats cross, with no calculations. Problems arise with this if the course wind conditions change greatly during the race. I sailed in a few handicap fleet races where this was done and it was quite exciting.
    As LAuman said, do what you need to do to get the boats out.
    Decide on your path and do what is best for the fleet. As I said, I would decide before the season, as if you start changing the rules during the season it is hard to keep people happy.
     
  8. LAuman

    LAuman Member

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    I, for one, WOULD be interested in how it goes for your fleet. That is, what you choose to do, how it effects finish placement IF you modify handicaps, and what happens with fleet attendance. . . the bottom line!
    The handicaps are a constant source of discussion in our club. . . It's really impossible to level the playing field for a very wide range of boat designs. . . and it can get quite complicated trying to do so. Having S'fish (or 'fish-like boats) might work better.
    Anyway, the old rating with the original flat sail, wood daggerboard & rudder, and no sail controls, was 102.4. I have no idea how one might apportion intermediates, but I believe that the sail is the major component and that the new rudder blade hasn't been factored in yet.
    Another interesting experiment would be some round-robin racing in similar wind/water conditions. Take a few differing boats and circulate the skippers. One could do statistics with a nice factorial design!
    You could also award handicapped and non-handicapped trophies for the same set of races. I assume that you don't have enough boats for A and B fleets, or you’d be doing that.
    Finally, someone always brings up the personal handicap systems based on past performance. Personally, I feel that those are antithetical to sailboat racing, but “newbie” or most-improved awards can be fun, useful, and motivating.
    . . . and, as scap said, decide ahead of time and stick with it.
    Good luck, and let us know.
     
  9. mike4947

    mike4947 Member

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    Actually the 102 rating was with the racing sail. That was before they split the class mainly due to the racing sail. Once the dagger board entered the picture it became imposible to sort things out aso they dropped the "REC" rating.
    The last true rec rating (before the intruduction of the racing sail was 105.
    So it dropped from 105 to 102 with the racing sail and dropped to 99 with the plastic daggerboard.
    FYI the 105 rating wasn't with the flat Ratsey but with the Fogh sail. The Ratsey rating was 108.
     
  10. mike4947

    mike4947 Member

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    Actually the 102 rating was with the racing sail. That was before they split the class mainly due to the racing sail. Once the dagger board entered the picture it became imposible to sort things out aso they dropped the "REC" rating.
    The last true rec rating (before the intruduction of the racing sail was 105.
    So it dropped from 105 to 102 with the racing sail and dropped to 99 with the plastic daggerboard.
    FYI the 105 rating wasn't with the flat Ratsey but with the Fogh sail. The Ratsey rating was 108.
     

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