Pushing boats across the startline

L

laser2_9804

New Member
Is it legal for a boat to position themselves below (to leeward) of you just before the start gun goes and then push you up over the start-line? Even though you are the windward boat, I would think this breaches the 'proper course' rule. Am I right?

If not, how can you get out of a situation like this without breaking the start? There is no room to tack as I would cross the line.
 
It's perfectly legal, as there is no proper course before the start so that does not apply, however, it is not legal if they come from astern. The leeward boat is allowed to push you however high they want, you can't do much in the situation besides yell at them or you could tack out and find a new hole to start in.

TC
 
Yes it's legal, as long as they give you time to keep clear and don't take you past head to wind. You have to give way to a leeward boat, even if it means going over the start line early.

How do you get out of the situation? Well, the best (but potentially unhelpful) answer is to avoid getting into the situation in the first place. Keep a gap to leeward big enough to accelerate into at the start, but not so big that other boats want to slot in there. When you see them coming, point your boat along the line to close the gap and yell that there is no room for them, then use your momentum to turn back up into the wind as close as possible to the windward boat after they pass (or if they barge) to give yourself the room you need. Don't sit so close to the line that you have no room to maneuver, but also don't let your bow drop behind the bows of the boats around you. Endlessly practice your slow boat control so you can put and keep the boat wherever you want without moving forward.

If that doesn't work then you pretty much have to go head to wind, push the boom out to stop the boat from going over the line early, and watch as the fleet sails away from you - at least you will have learnt from the experience. Much of the time you can only get a good start at the expense of someone else - it's a cruel world.
 
Thanks for the replies. At least I am more clear on the rules etc regarding this now. I will have to practice starts more and figure out how to defend my position better.

TimClark - can you please clarify the rules around the 'coming up from astern' comment you made. I've never heard that before.
 
It's a case of if you have established an overlap from astern within two boat lengths then you may luff the windward boat as you please before the start, but once the start signal is made, you must bear away to your proper course. You couldn't, for example, push the windward boat onto the opposite tack at the signal. You can push them over the line in the final minute however.

If you established your overlap to leeward from a distance further than two boat lengths astern you can do as you please (within the rules) before and after the start.

The best thing to do would be to tack into a leeward position within a boat length of the windward boat. You can then luff the windward boat before and after the start signal.

Yelling there is no room means nothing. It will only work if the person being yelled at doesn't know their rights - a bit like those boffins that yell 'starboard' 5 boat lengths from every mark. As there is generally no room for anyone anywhere on a startline with an average sized fleet, you're better off concentrating on what you're doing. Giving the windward boat room to keep clear suddenly becomes measured in mm rather than metres.

Bear in mind that giving the windward boat room to keep clear does not mean that if you push him into other boats it's just his problem.
 
As a slight aside (but related), clearly a leeward boat can push a windward boat the wrong side of the committee boat provided it gives the windward boat an opportunity to keep clear (even in "keeping clear" means going the wrong side of the committee boat).

However, where there is an ILM, is the area between the committee boat and the ILM considered an obstruction or can a leeward boat force a windward boat between the committee boat and an ILM (and for the windward boat to suffer the consequences).

(As I'm useless at explaining situations) to clarify by example, suppose two overlapped boats reaching in intending to pass the committee boat, then head up onto the wind round the ILM and start. they pass the committee boat reaching along fine, but then the leeward boat starts to head-up to start really close to the ILM, forcing the windward boat inside the ILM (between the committee boat and the ILM). Who has broken the rules ? Nobody has hit anybody nor anything.

Also, what is the normal penalty race officers impose for passing between the committee boat and an ILM.

Many thanks

Ian
 
Rob B said:
What's an ILM?
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Sorry, Inner Limit Mark. Often used to keep starters away from the committee boat. Don't know it they are used much in Laser fleets but used to be used in Fireballs and certainly used in larger boat races (where a bit of barging or squabbling could cause quite a lot of damage to the committee boat).


Ian
 
OK. We call it a barging bouy. Anyway, it's an extension of the RC Boat and to be treated as such. Since there's a line connecting it to the boat it'll be hard to go between the two. Touching it is like hitting the boat. Leeward boat has rights here too. However, if you are going to pinch them out you have to give them room to keep clear/bail out.
 
I've never come across a line connecting the ILM to the committee boat (hence wondering if leeward could luff windward between the gap as there would be nothing to stop windward going through that gap other than the sailing instructions - not collision nor damage).

Ian
 
Chainsaw said:
Yelling there is no room means nothing. It will only work if the person being yelled at doesn't know their rights - a bit like those boffins that yell 'starboard' 5 boat lengths from every mark. As there is generally no room for anyone anywhere on a startline with an average sized fleet, you're better off concentrating on what you're doing.
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Someone sailing behind the front row with not long to go before the start is hoping to catch someone unawares and sneak in to leeward of them. Yelling that there is no room lets them know that you are on to them, and that they would be better off trying to ruin someone else's start. Once they've lost the element of surprise, they nearly always move further down the line looking for another victim.
 
TonyB said:
Yes it's legal, as long as they give you time to keep clear and don't take you past head to wind. You have to give way to a leeward boat, even if it means going over the start line early.
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Just to be clear - I believe it is the leeward boat that can't go past head-to-wind. (i.e the boat that is forcing you up can't go past head-towind)
 
Deimos said:
As a slight aside (but related), clearly a leeward boat can push a windward boat the wrong side of the committee boat provided it gives the windward boat an opportunity to keep clear (even in "keeping clear" means going the wrong side of the committee boat).

However, where there is an ILM, is the area between the committee boat and the ILM considered an obstruction or can a leeward boat force a windward boat between the committee boat and an ILM (and for the windward boat to suffer the consequences).

(As I'm useless at explaining situations) to clarify by example, suppose two overlapped boats reaching in intending to pass the committee boat, then head up onto the wind round the ILM and start. they pass the committee boat reaching along fine, but then the leeward boat starts to head-up to start really close to the ILM, forcing the windward boat inside the ILM (between the committee boat and the ILM). Who has broken the rules ? Nobody has hit anybody nor anything.

Also, what is the normal penalty race officers impose for passing between the committee boat and an ILM.

Many thanks

Ian
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What the ILM is classed as (obstruction or mark) depends on the description in the race instructions. If it's described as a no-go zone, it's an obstruction. If it's described in relation to the pin end of the line then it's a mark. Penalty could be any of the usual choices.
 
This is a pretty interesting conversation. Is the ILM term something that is common outside the US? It seems like it would be a hassle for the RC to have to position an anchored mark off their stern. I guess that's why I see "barging bouys", (US for ILM) just thrown from a stern cleat of RC's here. As for the luffing rights, you can not take the weather boat above head to wind.
As for "protecting your hole" before the gun you need to watch your stern for the late comers looking for a hole. When you see someone coming by poke your bow up to limit them from thinking they will fit to weather and poke your bow down to discourage/close up a leeward hole.
 
Have raced in Canada for over 15 years, both big boats and dinghy's - no ILMs there as far as I know... but interesting to see what other countries are calling what.. interesting discussion indeed - nice to get back into the thick of it!
 
My (UK) experience is that they used to be used with Fireball fleets (regattas) quite a lot (quite a few years ago) and more recently were nearly always used with larger boats. Never did much club racing so don't know what the situation was but I'd guess less likely. I can particularly understand larger boats as the poor guy who has allowed his own "prize and joy" (boat) to be used as a committee boat does not always want large boats moving at speed trying to cut as close as possible to him (whilst having a luffing squabble !).

From memory the Fireball national championships used to use gate starts - which were really civilised !! But with 160 boats starting I could imagine getting any other starts to work would be a nightmare. Even in Fireball open meetings (Regattas) having several general recalls (and eventually the black flag) was common.

Ian
 
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