Painting a laser hull

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by sail_moe, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. sail_moe

    sail_moe New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I know there was an article on Dr. Laser on this.. I miss that website

    I have an older 80s Laser hull. It looks like someone painted it at one time as it has a cream color on top with the original white paint underneath it. Last summer I sanded off as much of the cream color as I could but it still has spots of this cream color all over it. I have almost taken the paint down to bare fiberglass so I can't sand anymore. She is smooth as a baby's butt but she is REALLY ugly. Looks like she has oil stains on the bottom.

    Anyone have any luck with painting a laser hull?
     
  2. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Painting is expensive. People have used Awlgrip, but you need professional equipment to do that and the paint itself is rather expensive too. I think it would be easily over $500.

    If there are areas where all the gelcoat is gone, and the fiberglass (which will look dark, or greenish) is exposed, use some marine tex or gelcoat to fill it up.
    Do a search on this forum. many people have made good comments on how to sand a hull, how to use marine tex or gelcoat and why not to paint.

    Good luck!

    GWF
     
  3. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    If you have a buddy who paints cars have him help ypou prep the hull and use a top notch car paint.


    If you are not going to beat the hull there are lots of a fine two package paints which will do fine.

    Don't use something that simply air drys.


    If you are going to beat the hull, you don't care how it looks anyway and you would not have started this thread.
     
  4. snipeguy

    snipeguy New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yup. Two part atoumotive paints are great and cheaper than AwlGrip. An HVLP sprayer is the ticket. I will say that I have seen some pretty impressive jobs using AwlGrip and the roll and tip method. No fancy gear needed. It's an option that shouldn't be discounted.
     
  5. bplaxton

    bplaxton New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    does painting your hull guarantee disqualification from a major regatta? Or only if you are protested?
     
  6. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    For the hull, don't use auto paint or anything, it has to be gelcoat. You can get protested for having paint like that. However, the gelcoat is expensive and it takes ALOT of it to cover the whole hull.

    And no, repainting the hull WITH GELCOAT is legal.
     
  7. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Really? The classrules on coatings state the following (this is from "part two"):

    "8. HULL COATINGS
    The use of slowly soluble applications which might alter the boundary layer characteristics of the hull are prohibited."

    I do not think that auto paint is a slowly soluble application, right? Do I miss something here? Has anyone ever been protested for this reason?

    GWF
     
  8. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I ran into a similiar problem, and I asked quite a few people. That problem involved my '76 boat, and i wanted to fill the gelcoat as there were lots of scratches in it.


    anyway, the part of the rule you stated, "the use of slowly soluble applications which might alter the boundary layer characteristics of the hull are prohibited," refers to special paint with minute capsules in it that slowly release a lubricant. The effect is similiar to rigging a machine at the bow which constantly pours soap solution or some other lubricant over the hull, making it faster; like putting wax on a ski. the release of lubricant would alter the boundary layer, creating a very slippery layer between the hull and the water.

    Also, i guess I phrased my answer wrong. Some paints will release stuff over a period of time, so using them would technically be illegal. However, the bigger issue is that the dried surface of paint like awl-grip and car paint is extremely course compared to gelcoat, almost like taping sandpaper to the hull. The reason cars feel so smooth is because they have a clear coat painted over which is similiar to gelcoat, but not meant for water.
    Using something besides gelcoat will work, but it definitely won't be fast. At all.
     
  9. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Computeroman2,
    That is how I would explain that rule, but you seemed rather convinced that painting the hull with paint is illegal.
    I entirely disagree with you on the idea that paint is slow. If you apply it with a brush perhaps, but even then it can be sanded to a smooth finish. As long as you do all the prep work in the right way and apply it with a spray gun the result could be fantastic. My concern would be that paint is often softer than gelcoat and easily scratches.

    GWF
     
  10. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I believe you folks are focused on the wrong rule. Look at Rule 11, especially the word "refinishing".



    11. HULL FINISH
    (a) Waxing, polishing and fine wet and dry sanding of the hull is permitted, provided the intention and effect is to polish the hull only.
    Polishing/sanding shall not be used to remove mould imperfections.
    (b) Sanding and refinishing of the hull with the intention or effect to lighten the hull or improve the performance, finish, materials or
    shape beyond the original is not permitted.

    In my opinion the rule is sloppily drafted, and it ought to address the obvious case of people wanting to repaint their old boats. It should come out and say either:

    Painting or otherwise recoating the hull for the purpose of repair and restoration is permitted

    or else

    The hull shall not be painted or refinished with any material other than one substantially identical with the original gelcoat


    But in practical terms, to make a protest stick, wouldn't the protestor need to explain why the protested finish is "better" than the original? Is awlgrip "better" than gelcoat?

    My guess (but ask a measurer for a real opinion) is that nobody would look askance at you if you put paint -- almost any kind of paint -- on an old laser, but if you took a new laser and sanded it and put some kind of gee-wiz paint on the bottom, you'd have some 'splaining to do.

    My old beater laser was through to the glass in a couple of places. There's no way I was going to put a $500 paint job on a $750 boat, but I wanted to protect the glass. I rolled and tipped an Interlux epoxy (VC127), and sanded out the finish. For me, way faster, cheaper, and less skill-intensive than trying to use Awlgrip or gelcoat. You'd have a hard time convincing me that the paint is a cheat; I can't imagine it being any faster or otherwise better than gelcoat.

    But as I said, you'd need to ask some measurers
     
  11. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Phooey.. I thought the rule was crystal clear. That shows what I know.

    I do know exactly what the rule means. So, maybe I can rephrase it so others will also know.

    Overriding rule...Lasers are Lasers and the object is to sail similar boats. You can't mess with a Laser unless the rules say you can.....so the boats will all be the same.

    The rule in question.

    1. You cannot paint on a magic substance which would ooze out and make the boat go faster.
    This rule is based upon a worry that something like that might be developed someday. Currently, with the technoloqy we have, you would have to carry a few tons of our very best oozy goop in your hull at the beginning of the race so you could slowly release it as you sail around the course. It ain't happnion' with car paint and unless you have invented the magic goo, you don't need to worry about this rule.

    2. This rule is to keep us from having an "arms race." I could take a brand new Laser into my shop, spend lots of money and present a flawless hull. It would be slightly faster than the stock Laser.
    How much faster is anybody's guess but, I know there are plenty of people who would spend the money if it meant "having an edge" was the result.
    I know it is true because I perform exactly that sort of work for sailors who compete in other racing sailboats. People regularly pay me thousands of dollars to fair and polish their racing sailboats.
    The Laser class does not want the game to be about spending lots of money, so our rules say...

    You can fix the boat but if you make the thing better than new, we will have to toss your butt and your cheater boat ( which is not a laser anymore) out. That is not the game we want to play.

    Please read the rules again...If you do not think I just gave a pretty good rendition of what they say, please say so.
    If you can write the rule better so it will be more clear for others..PLEASE submit your draft to this list for discussion or to the ILCA for their consideration.

    Honestly, those of us who have been involved in the rules process thought we had this one down pretty well...apparently not?.
     
  12. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I understand with crystal clarity the intent of the rule and support it wholeheartedly. Taking a new hull, fairing it, longboarding it, and putting a mirror-smooth rock-hard magic polymer finish on it is clearly illegal. Patching up dings in your gelcoat is clearly OK.

    It's the "in between" where the rule falls down. Take my case. I don't have any reason to believe that VC127 is intrinsically any better than gelcoat. It might be a little harder, but gelcoat is pretty hard, too. I used it because it was way cheaper and easier than gelcoat or 2-part PU. But if I had put VC-127 on a newer boat and entered into serious races I could imagine someone raising a protest.

    I dunno, you're a measurer, and you also know a ton about resins 'n stuff. How would you rule on repainting a boat with:

    a) Gelcoat
    b) House paint
    c) Awlgrip
    d) VC-127
    e) Unobtainum-enhanced polymer modified with finely ground mermaid scales.
     
  13. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    A few years back a US Supreme court justice complained in a ruling that although wording for exact definitions eluded him, he "knew porn when he saw it."

    If a new boat is taken in and fixed up better than a new one, bells and whistles should go off.

    A few years ago, Doug Peckover bought five new Lasers after the worlds, sold four of them to friends and kept two for himself.
    He put the "spare" out in his yard upside down with a cover. The Texas heat caused the boat to cure such that the reinforcements all showed and the hull sagged down around the centerboard trunk.
    He brought the boat to me. I supported it by the gunwales, filled it with water, and put a black tarp over it. About a month later the boat had sagged back to its proper shape but the foam reinforcements still showed. In fact there was a 6 inch wide big lump running down each side of the hull. I sanded out the lumps and in the process I went through the gelcoat.
    I sprayed a couple gallons of gelcoat on the boat and sanded that material to 320 grit and buffed it. I also did not sand out the print through from the mast step because for some reason, I thought that would be illegal.

    Anyway, when I buffed the hull to a shine, the 320 scratches were just about right such that the finished surface left by overheating the gelcoat while buffing the scratches was about like a new boat.

    I race against Doug and neither of us wants him to have a boat that does not go the same slow as mine...That would not be a race.

    End anecdote.

    My point? There is not one. I just wanted to tell you about the boat Fishing Mickey has and loans out now.

    Also..if you have a realy old flexible boat and you put a perfect finish on it, I would not be the guy who would protest. I believe the flexible boat would still be slower than new and your better than new bottom would serve as an equalizer and therefore meet what I feel is the intent of the rule...to make all the baots the same slow....but that is a wierd fred opinion and others may not share my view ...especially the ILCA chief measurer who might be really nasty and toss you and your non-competitive slow but really pretty boat.

    Answering your list?
    Fine unless you make it better than new
    Fine unless you make it better than new
    Fine unless you make it better than new
    Fine unless you make it better than new
    If you hurt her and she does not show up at all the races in Corpus anymore I will be furious.
     
  14. bplaxton

    bplaxton New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Good discussion, this has cleared things up for me somewhat. I've got an old hull (baby blue, 61912) which I prepped and painted with Interlux 1-part last winter. I didn't do a great job apparently as there's been some peeling but that's another story. I was just concerned that I could drive all the way to Gimli next summer and be turned away by a measurer.
     
  15. DaveK

    DaveK New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I want e) Unobtainum-enhanced polymer modified with finely ground mermaid scales....... that's funny!!

    The only point here that I don't agree on is.... why can't I put pretty custom paint job on a brand new boat?? It would be heavier and slower than new but, prettier. I see that the main point is making the boat lighter would be illegal.

    Also... Automotive Clear will work just fine on a boat. Just want to make sure that you get a High Performance clear that's rock hard. This boat was painted with uros.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There's still the pesky question of what it means to make a boat "better" than new, since "better" and "faster" are not necessarily the same.

    For example, through-bolting your fittings (replacing the original rivets on the spars with bolts and nuts, or replacing the screws that attach fittings to the deck with bolts and backing washers and nuts) does not make the boat faster, but it does make it better than the original. Is it legal? Some people say "yes", some say "no".
     
  17. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Please take this question to the Measurer's forum and see what answer you get. Perhaps Gouvernail, who is an official Measurer (I think) will be able to help
     
  18. DaveK

    DaveK New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That's good!! Better is NOT Faster.... Ok by me!! Purity of this class can only be taken so far. If you want to reinforce your vang attchment at the boom so, it doesn't break in a bad jybe then, go for it.

    DaveK
     
  19. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    "1. You cannot paint on a magic substance which would ooze out and make the boat go faster.
    This rule is based upon a worry that something like that might be developed someday. Currently, with the technoloqy we have, you would have to carry a few tons of our very best oozy goop in your hull at the beginning of the race so you could slowly release it as you sail around the course. It ain't happnion' with car paint and unless you have invented the magic goo, you don't need to worry about this rule."

    For one thing, I have seen this stuff for myself. It exists, you don't need to carry around alot, and it does make performance faster. The technology was looked into a while ago, and samples were made, but once ISAF&US Sailing got wind of it, they immediately added that rule so that it couldn't be used.

    "I entirely disagree with you on the idea that paint is slow. If you apply it with a brush perhaps, but even then it can be sanded to a smooth finish. As long as you do all the prep work in the right way and apply it with a spray gun the result could be fantastic. My concern would be that paint is often softer than gelcoat and easily scratches."

    The clear-coat they apply isn't slow, but regular auto paint is. So are most other paints. It doesn't have to do with how you apply it, it's the size and composition of the paint flakes. most paint is designed to be easy to manage and look pretty, which means a bigger flake of paint. Gelcoat and clear coat have smaller flakes so that the actual surface will be smoother. It has to do with aerodynamics (well, hydrodynamics) and boundary layers, but it makes a difference in water because it is much more dense than air.
     
  20. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16

Share This Page