Interesting tactical move

49208

49208

Tentmaker
Here's one that may cause some discussion

Can happen in all conditions where you can heel the boat to windward upwind.

2 boats converging upwind, opposite tacks - Port tack boat slightly behind and will duck. Stbd crosses and somewhere between 1/2 and 1 boat length to windward of port tack boat, roll tacks to port. At the the same time, boat that was on port and ducking, heels to windward.

Result is contact between spars and/or sails.

Normally, it would seem to be pretty cut and dry as far as the rules go - boat that was tacking did not stay clear, but in this case the boat not tacking can purposely heel to windward and make it almost impossible for the tacking boat to keep clear unless the tacking boat flat tacks instead of roll tacks.

Is heeling to windward when a boat tacks close by to windward a good tactical move or a foul ? How would you decide a protest between both boats and why ?
 
Interesting one. Let's assume that the port tacker, as you say, deliberately heeled to windward in order to make contact with the boat tacking.

Then it would seem that the port tacker has violated Rule 14 (avoid contact if reasonably possible) but on the other hand she "shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury".

The port tacker is not under any obligation under Rule 15 to give the boat tacking room to keep clear because the port tacker gained right of way due to the other boat's action.

The port tacker is required under Rule 16 as right-of-way boat not to change course in such a way that the other boat does not have room to keep clear. But then a heel to windward can hardly be construed as a change of course.

So I can't see that the port tacker can be penalized (unless there was damage or injury) except perhaps under Rule 2 Fair Sailing. And then only if the protest committee decides that "it is clearly established" that the boat has violated the "recognized principles of fair play and sportsmanship".
 
The boat that tacked from starboard to port has violated Rule 16 if she fails to give the other boat room to keep clear. But the definition of keep clear says that one boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action. If, as you say, the port tacker had to deliberately heel to windward in order to make contact with the tacking boat, then it seems that she could have sailed her course without taking avoiding action. So by definition the tacking boat was keeping clear and so should not be penalized.
 
Interesting indeed, I think the Jury would have a hard time deciding whether the port boat had deliberately caused the heel to windward as the helm could claim any number of outside influences such as a lull. I think the tacking boat would have a hard time here not to do turns as I probably would to be on the safe side! If you throw a (slow) tack in that close to another boat you're in dodgy territory I think..Are you an apprentice master then?
 
there is no rules ambiguitiy here... break it down a bit:

if the contact happens before the tacking boat crosses HtW, then DSQ the port tack boat for failing to keep clear of a stbd tack boat.

if the contact happens after the tacking boat crosses HtW, then the boat tacking is a keep-clear boat; so the tack doesn't really make any difference here, it is the same as if it were simply a windward boat already. so let's consider the simple situation: a leeward boat heels to windward and her rig makes contact with that of a windward boat. There is a rapid response call to this situation already; take a look at ISAF's site. Bascially, if the heel to windward is dramatic and intentional, then disqualify the leeward boat under rule 2 (fair sailing). if it is only a slight change in heel, then the windward boat was not keeping clear sufficiantly, and should be disqualified.

heeling / movement of the rigging, boom, etc. is not a chage of course
 
If you scream spin for the port-tack rudder rule at a newbie, they'll probably spin too.


Does that make it right?


I agree with rtrs.
 
computeroman2 said:
If you scream spin for the port-tack rudder rule at a newbie, they'll probably spin too.


Does that make it right?


I agree with rtrs.
Click to expand...

That is against the rules, I forget the number but the Fair Play or sportsmanship rule.
 
computeroman2 said:
If you scream spin for the port-tack rudder rule at a newbie, they'll probably spin too.


Does that make it right?


I agree with rtrs.
Click to expand...
this is going to sound really stupid, ive heard the joke before but what does port-tack rudder rule mean, is it just something that sounds fancy and makes the newbie think its real so they accept it.
 
Sailing deep by the lee can also produce some interesting situations at close quarters - have had some 'luffing matches' by the lee from some in exhuberant club races. The RRS might need to be reviewed when you get two boats effectively reaching on what would normally be port tack for conventionally stayed rigs but with booms both forward and over the port side (like spinnaker poles).

Converging boats at mark roundings , some by the lee and others not also makes for interesting sailing - even though the new RRS supposedly 'cover' such situations, in practice there is often an argument.

Also upwind, because a Laser can tack so fast - hunting and tacking so close to cover that the give-way boat has to scramble to avoid contact (after already ducking the right of way boat) also seems to be occurring more frequently - years ago in the VJ class, screwdrivers taped to bowsprits emerged as a popular means to discourage this.

Maybe Lasers need special ammendments to the RRS or just a universally agreed interpretation?
 
Hi GLASKY.

In terms of sailing "by the lee" and overlaps have a look at these two rule definitions:


Tack​
​
​
, Starboard or Port: ​
A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side.​
Click to expand...

Which is confusing in terms of sailing a Laser "by the lee", but then there is this:


Leeward​
​
​
and Windward: ​
A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.​
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I interpret this as if two boats are sailing "by the lee" the windward boat (in reality) actually has luffing rights, as long as the overlap has not been established from astern.
 
sailor327 said:
this is going to sound really stupid, ive heard the joke before but what does port-tack rudder rule mean, is it just something that sounds fancy and makes the newbie think its real so they accept it.
Click to expand...

It's a rule someone obviously made up to try and intimidate a new-to-sailing person. Unfortunately, someone in the northeast started a habit of trying to pull it on someone, and it's been screamed at my team once or twice. I've also seen someone actually spin for it (I was spectating that regatta so I couldn't protest).

I think that second definition pretty much lays it out. Also, I think it's natural to assume the boom side is the lee side anyway. I've never thought of it as anything different.
 
It's the port tack boat that broke the rules by doing an unexpected move that causes contact.
You're not allowed to do stuff like that without giving the other boat time to avoid you, no matter how clear the rules are on who should stay clear.
 
Josef said:
It's the port tack boat that broke the rules by doing an unexpected move that causes contact.
You're not allowed to do stuff like that without giving the other boat time to avoid you, no matter how clear the rules are on who should stay clear.
Click to expand...

I think my point here is that it's awfully hard for the tacking boat to prove that the boat to leeward actually heeled to windward with the intent of making contact. Without a witness it comes down to who best presents their case. The first 4 or 5 replies bear that out.

So, what use to be a sure fire way to keep a tight cover on a competitor now becomes a 50/50 chance that you foul them when roll tacking or as a windward boat that does not keep clear of a leeward boat. If you are forced to limit the amount of roll in your tack, it becomes much more difficult to pull off the covering tack and I think the leeward boat will sail right thru you cover at least 50% of the time...
 
Josef said:
It's the port tack boat that broke the rules by doing an unexpected move that causes contact.
You're not allowed to do stuff like that without giving the other boat time to avoid you, no matter how clear the rules are on who should stay clear.
Click to expand...


Remember though, the boat didn't change course, it just healed to windward. Anytime you change course you need to give them room to keep clear. For example you can have two boats very close to each other and then a puff hits, the leeward boat's skipper hikes out and bam, a foul on the windward boat for not keeping clear.

To me, if the boat intentionally healed to windward to cause contact, its a rule 2 foul.
 
The boat originally on port tack appears to have done the right thing by ducking and letting the stbd boat pass. It was clearly after this pass that the stbd boat tacked and the collission took place. Therefore, if the stbd boat tacked in the waters of the port tack boat (may be the collission happened at that time) then she was clearly in the wrong. Alternately, if the collission happenned after she completed the tack and her sails were set, then she would be the windward boat and had to keep clear of the leeward boat. Either way the boat originally on stbd tack would appear to be the guilty party.

My two bits!
 
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