Electronic Compasses

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by Deimos, Aug 5, 2007.

  1. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Of course the boats will be different. That's the owner (skippers) choice. But...Any of the older boats without pro rigging or old sails could update their boats and be exactly the same as a new boat. The rules are defining what the ceiling is on upgrades/changes. So, IMHO that keeps it a strict OD class..

    As soon as you open up one aspect (as it appears you would like to see with the rigging), it means that some of the fiddlers will look for ways to gain an advantage (which you already imply by saying someone sailing with a new vang has over someone with the old vang) but w/o a rule to control what the ceiling is, it can quickly turn into an arms race...

    Bottom line is the Laser class rules are, by design, meant to eliminate 90% or more of the fiddling and let the sailors focus on just sailing the boat and focus on "fiddling" with their own sailing skills
     
  2. powergroove

    powergroove Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Do you really think that equipment/rigging can get that much better than the new stuff? I personally dont, but it can be refined, specifically internalize some of the rigging on the boom. I got caught twice in the outhaul and mainsheet on a tack(probably due to lack of time on the boat) and almost got pulled over backwards. Little things like that, not huge 10:1 sheeting systems or crazy backstay contraptions or things like that. Just some flexibility on how we run lines, and not making people buy Vanguard equipment at an overinflated price. That in itself would help some of us catch up to the Laser Pro rig specs without breaking the bank, thereby making it more one design than it supposedly is now.
    If you think one design as hull, sails, spars, boards, and not as systems, then you right on track. But limiting a sailor to buying Vanguard equipment and things like that are what steers people away from this class. It almost did me when I read the rules, but I had a free boat and I rigged it close to what everyone else was doing, but still illegally in the eyes of the rules.

    Dont get me wrong, Im all about one design racing, and I loved my frist taste of Laser racing, but maybe I have a different opinion what one design means to me than most.
     
  3. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    I agree, one design should be sail, hull, blades, and spars. Anyone can make the sail, as long as it fits the rules, and ONLY ONE builder makes the hull, blades, and spars. I see absolutely no reason for there to be rules for control's.

    I bet that if you could do it your own way, a lot more people would be racing because they could rig what they want, instead of having to shell out the big bucks.

    you want a 10:1 DH, great! internal OH, even better! I still want a bolt rope foot on the sail, so it just feeds into the boom, and end the clew strap stuff, and that seem entirely reasonable to me, and could also be discussed to mast's. I think as long as the boom and mast meet the specified bend characteristic's, then anything can go.

    you want a 4:1 rear style mainsheet, or 6:1 center mainsheet, great, do whatever. I seriously think it doesent make a difference, neither is faster.

    want a digital compass? good idea!
     
  4. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I think you want to sail a Finn.
     
  5. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Laser North Americans 2007.....92 boats (plus 109 Radials and 20 4.7s)

    Finn North Americans 2007......23 boats.

    Simple boat = bigger fleet.

    Bigger fleet = better competition.

    Better competition = better racing.

    Better racing = more fun.
     
  6. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    I do! have you ever read any of my posts??
     
  7. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    The Laser is a different kind of one design.

    One of the attractions of the Laser for most owners is that the class rules are very strict and that the boat is one design. The Laser philosophy incorporated in the rules is that we want to go sailing, not waste time fiddling with boats. We want to win races on the water using our skill, not by trying to find a way round the rules that will give us an advantage.
    The Class Rules are written to prevent any changes from the standard boat that might affect performance, so that on the water each boat is the same. The few changes to the standard boat that are allowed are minor and only to allow for a few options that make racing the Laser more comfortable and enjoyable.

    Over the years the class has refused to make changes to the rules that allow more expensive or complicated equipment or which makes older boats redundant.

    If you feel you want to change something on a Laser - STOP
    Ask yourself why you want to do it? If the answer is “to make me go faster” there is a very good chance the modification or addition is illegal!

    If you race a Laser that has a change or addition not allowed by the class rules you will be disqualified from the race. Ignorance of the rules is no defense.

    In our sport in every club and class there is the odd person who needs to cheat to win. Cheating is doing something that you know is illegal. Whether you gain an advantage or not is irrelevant.

    Our class is strong and popular because we believe in a strict one design and our sailors want to know that they are racing on equal terms. The ILCA takes a very strong line with Laser sailors who do not sail according to the rules. There have been cases in the past where sailors who have sailed with illegal boats have been banned from sailing a Laser. Such a ban can be for life.

    If action is also taken under the racing rules, the ban can cover racing in any boat.

    Our class is much bigger than the odd person who wants to gain advantage by illegally changing the Laser or its equipment. They can sail in other classes where the rules allow changes to a boat to get an advantage. We do not want them with us.
     
  8. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I know you do. I have read many of your posts. I am much better suited to a Finn given my size, but I can't afford both boats and I would hate to give up sailing in big fleets for sailing in small fleets a couple of times a year.
     
  9. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    To use a car analogy, everyone else is driving this:

    [​IMG]

    But Ross and Powergroove want to be driving this:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    You Sir are clearly mistaken if you belive that one fleet is better than the other based only on fleet size. So much ignorance.... Have you ever even sailed a Finn? And you do know the Laser is a steping stone boat right? As is the Finn. Lots move from their junior trainer, to the Laser, to the Finn, to the Star. Look at Ben Ainslie, Robert Schiedt, and Mark Mendleblatt amoung others.
     
  11. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I have sailed all three boats, although I have only really raced the Laser and Star (having sailed at least one North American Championship in each class).

    Although the Laser might be a "steping [sic] stone boat" for top sailors, it is THE class to sail for high quality big fleet racing at all levels.

    I'm sure the Finn is a great boat to race, but like the Star, it is much more expensive to own than a Laser, and racing in big fleets requires too much traveling for me.
     
  12. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    My car analogy images are being blocked. So here it is with a new, but equivalent image:

    To use a car analogy, everyone else is driving this:

    [​IMG]

    But Ross and Powergroove want to be driving this:
    [​IMG]
     
  13. powergroove

    powergroove Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Chris, just want race a Laser with controls that are safe and easy and dont have to be purchased at an overinflated price, thats it. You want to be ban me for life from racing Laser's already? Damn son, I have heard about a-holes in the Laser class, I guess I found one. Funny how I didnt find one at the ragatta this weekend, I guess the ones that actually sail are cool, the ones that just tear down all the newbies on this forum are the real a-holes Ive heard about....
     
  14. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Actually, Powergroove, my previous post did not contain my personal opinions...it was an exact quote from the first page of the International Laser Class Association Rules. The same rules that you should be reading to determine if any of your suggestions are allowable.
     
  15. GBR 134

    GBR 134 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ross you are welcome to and entitled to all these things in my view. May I recommend the following website: - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/
    You should find a whole variety of classes that will meet your needs.

    You may also like to consider this site: -http://www.annamariavolpi.com/ if you wish to remain on course for the 2012 Olympics in a single-handed class that meets your needs and therefore need to gain weight for the Finn. (In essence the Finn has a strict hull and sail plan measurement rule but how you comply to that or rig it is pretty open. Anyone can build any part to a spec or rule – that’s what you’re asking for isn’t it?)

    There are so many choices of class of boat that allow infinite options - if that's what you want go sail one (I do much of the time). The Laser is unique - mess with it at your peril!
     
  16. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Powergroove, this is a personal attack--not allowed on TLF. Cease and desist.
     
  17. powergroove

    powergroove Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    This is written in the rules?

    Youre saying I WANT to cheat, thats just not true.
     
  18. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I did not read Sailchris's comments as saying that you want to cheat, and I'm a pretty critical reader. I also thought that his car analogy was apt. His comment that if you want to fuss with the boat, we don't want you in the class, IS from the Laser Class rules. We love debate here. Please take a break, maybe go sailing, and chill a bit, maybe read the thread from the start. :)
     
  19. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I made an analogy between taking a 70's car (i.e. the 70's designed Laser) and wanting it to resemble a modern version of the same car (i.e. a modern open class boat).

    According to the Laser class rules, the changes you and Ross are suggesting are currently defined as cheating: "Cheating is doing something that you know is illegal. Whether you gain an advantage or not is irrelevant."

    I don't disagree that there are some parts of the Laser that could do with some improvement, but until those improvements become legal under the rules, you are not allowed to make them yourself and race with other Lasers. The way to effect change is to suggest that certain improvements be approved by the class; it has happened in the past (e.g. new vang, new clew sleeve, etc.).

    Oh, and we like sailing our simple little boats. It annoys us when you suggest that it will die out as a result of the rules that have made it the dominant singlehanded class in the world. Learn to love the simplicity (and occasional anachronism); when you need your complexity fix, sail your F18.
     
  20. Deimos

    Deimos Member

    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    One thing often surprises me - that some people go out, buy a Laser knowing what it is, how it all works (one design, limited sail manufacturers, strict gear control, etc.) then start griping like mad because the rules/regs they were quite happy about are now the same but they decide they don't like them and the class should change to meet their new needs and desires.

    Same with sails. When people buy their Laser, the prices of new sails are clearly published and available. But then people don't half get uptight about having to pay those prices and start complaining about the one design rules being to restrictive when it comes to sail manufacturers.

    I purchased my Laser, I knew what it was and how it worked and I'm happy about it and having a great time. If it all changed because a few people realised that they have other interests (like tweaking and messing with their boat control systems) then what about those of us that still like it as it is. As others have said, the current system works (190000 boats is hardly a commercial disaster) and for those that want to tweak and play around there are loads of other classes, good competitions, etc. - so why focus so much on changing the Laser when maybe what is needed is for those few people to change their boat. If they realise this then they will be fortunate in that there is such a good 2nd hand market for Lasers and they hold their value so well (which might have something to do with what a Laser is and what Laser racing is all about).

    Ian
     

Share This Page