New to This: Many questions....

D

Dino00235

New Member
Greetings....

Love the website... you guys have been tons of help already.

I acquired an older laser this past spring, and have been teaching myself to sail all summer.

I have no plans to race, at least not in the near to semi-distant future... and enjoy spending most of my time in the boat on long reaches trying to see how fast I can go.....

I have already realized that it is not much fun (for me) unless there are a few whitecaps on the lake. I have found that 20% - 30% of the waves being topped is ideal for me so far.....

(I live in the middle of the Canadian prairies, BTW.... we have a large lake with nothing but prairie surrounding it.... occasionally the winds just howl)

I have a couple of questions about this, though..... A few weekends ago, I was at the lake, in conditions where it was about 20-30% whitecaps, and I had a blast.... The daggerboard was humming, and sailing FELT fast.... I could JUST hold the boat down fully sheeted in (I weigh about 200lbs....) and It was great.

This past weekend I went out, In much stronger winds. There was a storm passing by the south end of our lake, (all of the Cat sailors came in.....) and as the storm passed... winds picked up something fierce. It was great.... maybe 70-80% whitecap, with some fairly large 'wavelets' forming (for a shallow lake, that is)

Except... as large as I am, I could not hold the boat flat to save my life.... I went into shore and tightened everything as hard as it would go, and still no chance. I could not sheet in all the way (or I tipped the boat almost instantly). I did reaches near the shore in this as long as I could (hey, it was exhausting)... but it did not feel anywhere near as fast as it had the week before.... despite the winds being much stronger.

The boat would kinda lift its nose and head up in the gusts especially when plowing through or over the waves...., but I could not get fast enough to hear the daggerboard at all.

How could the boat not be as fast despite the definite increase in windspeed? Could it be that I was not truly planing on the previous week? Does the entire boat lift out, or just the bow? How would I tell? It sure felt like it was skimming rather than plowing.

And how windy is too windy? I went to the lake on sunday.... but it was WAY windy.... (every wave was topped... I would guess about 50-70 km/h winds) everybody else had come in... there was a lone windsurfer on the lake.... and he was fast, but he rarely kept up through his transitions....

I wasn;t that tempted to go out (hey, I am just a beginner....) but kinda curious as to how possible it would be (for next year when I am better).... Is there a way to depower the standard rig? Is there a point at which more windspeed no longer equates to more boatspeed? Is there a point at which it is no longer safe?
 
After soo much wind the boat just gets slow, after about 33knots all you do is fight the sail from stalling. its good to foot (bear off) a bit in super strong winds and its essential to feather the sail. you didnt mention the type of wind is on the lake other than it was really strong, well normally wheres strong winds in lakes there is a lot of gusts, i would probably guess these would be giving you a lot of your problems especially if sailing close to shore. one technique that will help you a lot is to head up into the wind when coming into a puff just untill the sail starts to stall and spills power and the boat becomes flat, then just bear off to your course you were origionally on.

You said you were about 200 pounds, that is deffinitly enough weight to hoild that boat down. were you hiking? if not you have to hike.... hard, and in heavy wind especially its gonna hurt, but yet your gonn have to do it a lot if your wanting to sail winds like that, check out the drlaser site they have a good artical my steve cockerill about proper hiking techquniques.

well thats all i can say from my experiences :)
 
Teeftie said:
i would probably guess these would be giving you a lot of your problems especially if sailing close to shore. :)
Click to expand...


I'm curious about the above comment. What's the difference between sailing close to shore -vs- middle of the lake ? As a beginner, I tend stay maybe 100-300 ft from shore.
 
Im not sure how much in your case this will help, but the boat is fastest when flat, so if you where capable of keeping the boat flat the first time, but in the heavier wind you where unable to, this would have caused you to be a little slower, though the wind will cause you to go faster. ITs hard to say wether it would even it out or not...it also sounds like you may havd been getting a little weather helmed and may have been pinching a bit. I am also fairly new to sailing lasers at least but thats my inpute on the situation.
 
because of the pressure differences caused by the sun heating up the land and the water un equally, you tend to get a lot of shifty winds around shore, and a lot of gusts. Also watch out for clouds, clouds drop a patch of cold air air onto the water that creats gusts. Basically sail where your confortable sailing
 
Just to add to Teeftie, the sun heating land and water should only cause wind to be shifty twice a day. Here how it works, water has a high heat capacity meaning it takes longer to heat up but also stays warmer longer, so in the morning the water is warmer than land so as the warm air rises from the water cool air will come off the land and craete wind, if its a nice sunny afternoon by about 11-1 the land will heat up more than the water and the wind will shift, but during this stage they will be the same temperature for a while which will cause the wind to shift alot and also completely die at points, it will switch back in the evneing as well. So this really doesnt have much of an answer to your first question, but does provide valuable information, sail in the morning come in for a nice lunch let the winds shift and go out and sail some more. :)
 
So guys, explain how your classic description of thermal breezes applies to a lake surrounded on all sides by land ?
 
If the prevailing wind is light and variable you will see thermal breezes near shore on all sides of a lake, but not in the middle. If you have a strong prevailing breeze, say from the south at 10+ the only thing you'll get from getting close to shore will be lifts or headers as the breeze reacts to the shape of the land.

In ocean/beach sailing thermals are quite different. They are what we call the "sea breeze" that will usually crank up in the afternoon once the land has had time to heat up. When that happens the shore acts like a big vaccume cleaner and starts sucking the breeze in. That's why all sea breezes blow toward shore.

49208 said:
So guys, explain how your classic description of thermal breezes applies to a lake surrounded on all sides by land ?
Click to expand...
 
Rob B, u are actually wrong in that, because not all winds blow towards the shore, at rosebud, he he he, because its in the bay & on the other side of the point is the ocean, the wind comes from the ocean side, we sail inside the bay, this makes the breeze basically offshore for us, but for most of the other clubs its an onshore breeze
 
Rob B said:
If the prevailing wind is light and variable you will see thermal breezes near shore on all sides of a lake, but not in the middle.
Click to expand...

So, are you saying that no matter where you are on the shore surrounding the lake, you'll have wind with a direction roughly 90 degrees to the land mass. That would mean the wind is fanning out 360 degrees from the center of the lake..... What size lake are you describing.
 
I did not say, "no matter where you are on the shore surrounding a lake you'll have a wind with a direction roughly 90 degrees to the land mass."

The lakes I've sailed on are usually a mile or so wide and several miles in length. We're not talking about racing pond yachts are we?

Have you ever sailed on a lake? Have you ever heard the term, "Stay away from the middle" when lake sailing on no wind/very light wind days? Thermals created by shore/water temperature differences are not always going to be 90 degrees to shore. They can be, but there are many things on a shore that alter breeze such as hills, trees, structures, shore line, and so on. You may find the thermals will be spotty. Some near the shore, some 100 yards off shore and there will be variances in direction.

You can not compare thermals on inland lakes to a "sea breeze" found on the coast.

Also, inland lake thermals are no where as strong as a "sea breeze" because the water mass of an inland lake is usually pretty small compared to the surrounding land. Also, lakes do not have much current which allows the water surface to heat up much faster to be closer to air temp than you will get on the ocean. The closer the air temps the less likely there will be a thermal at all or it will be very weak. Which is what you get most of the time sailing on lakes.

49208 said:
So, are you saying that no matter where you are on the shore surrounding the lake, you'll have wind with a direction roughly 90 degrees to the land mass. That would mean the wind is fanning out 360 degrees from the center of the lake..... What size lake are you describing.
Click to expand...
 
All sea breezes are "sucked in" by the surrounding land. Depending on what direction your particular piece of dirt happens to point does not mean the breexz is going to be 90 degrees to that part of land. It will be generally 90 degrees to the large land mass. For instance in Corpus Christi the sea breeze will come out of the South/Southwest. This breeze will continue all the way up to Dallas. In Charleston, SC the sea breeze comes right down the bay toward the Battery, (I can't remember the direction) In Beaufort SC the sea breeze runs almost parallel to the shore as it comes straight up the ICW. In FL near the Space center the sea breeze will run close to 90 degrees to the ICW.

So there are variences, but the variences are generally created by the "lay of the land" of the smaller areas surrounding the large land mass interacting with the large water mass to create the sea breeze.

yachtie2k4 said:
Rob B, u are actually wrong in that, because not all winds blow towards the shore, at rosebud, he he he, because its in the bay & on the other side of the point is the ocean, the wind comes from the ocean side, we sail inside the bay, this makes the breeze basically offshore for us, but for most of the other clubs its an onshore breeze
Click to expand...
 
Rob B said:
I did not say, "no matter where you are on the shore surrounding a lake you'll have a wind with a direction roughly 90 degrees to the land mass."
Click to expand...
You're right, but you did say:
Rob B said:
If the prevailing wind is light and variable you will see thermal breezes near shore on all sides of a lake, but not in the middle
Click to expand...
What does that mean ?



Rob B said:
The lakes I've sailed on are usually a mile or so wide and several miles in length. We're not talking about racing pond yachts are we?

Have you ever sailed on a lake? Have you ever heard the term, "Stay away from the middle" when lake sailing on no wind/very light wind days? Thermals created by shore/water temperature differences are not always going to be 90 degrees to shore. They can be, but there are many things on a shore that alter breeze such as hills, trees, structures, shore line, and so on. You may find the thermals will be spotty. Some near the shore, some 100 yards off shore and there will be variances in direction.

You can not compare thermals on inland lakes to a "sea breeze" found on the coast.

Also, inland lake thermals are no where as strong as a "sea breeze" because the water mass of an inland lake is usually pretty small compared to the surrounding land. Also, lakes do not have much current which allows the water surface to heat up much faster to be closer to air temp than you will get on the ocean. The closer the air temps the less likely there will be a thermal at all or it will be very weak. Which is what you get most of the time sailing on lakes.
Click to expand...
In 35+ years of sailing I have sailed on many lakes, pond size to the Great Lakes. On the smaller lakes I have raced on, I have never raced in a thermal breeze that was caused by a temp difference between surrounding land and the lake, mainly for all the reasons you describe, which leads the race committees not to start a race as the winds are too light and too variable in direction in the regattas I have been in. My experiences on the lake sizes that you describe have been winds that are suitable enough for racing are driven by factors other then thermal conditions between the lake and surrounding land. In the message that started this thread, the wind was a result of a storm that passed on the south end of the lake

I'm not saying that you can't have a thermal wind on a small lake, but as it relates to this thread, for sure the breeze DINO00235 was talking about was NOT a thermal wind. Yet Teeftie seemed to use that as his explanation for his conclusion that the wind was shifty close to shore.
 
most of the time, the breeze is shifty close to the shore, because the breeze actually bends around the land mass, but if there are trees, whether it be tiny trees or big trees, the wind will go around them, its the same with big fleets of boats, wind will go around a big fleet of boats. and rob b, about the thermals, in smaller lakes here, it doesn't happen, all the wind is in the middle when its light, & even when its blowing 25-30 knots, its still stronger in the middle than on the edges.
 
I Agree.

I'm not saying that you can't have a thermal wind on a small lake, but as it relates to this thread, for sure the breeze DINO00235 was talking about was NOT a thermal wind. Yet Teeftie seemed to use that as his explanation for his conclusion that the wind was shifty close to shore.[/QUOTE]
 
Sounds like your lake just has the standard "light and variable" breeze and is not conducive to thermals. When it blows of course it's stronger in the middle. There's nothing there to disrupt the flow. If it's blowing 25-30 you're not sailing in thermals.

rob b, about the thermals, in smaller lakes here, it doesn't happen, all the wind is in the middle when its light, & even when its blowing 25-30 knots, its still stronger in the middle than on the edges.[/QUOTE]
 
With the lake I sail on.... when it is windy enough to sail, any added effect from thermal land/water differences is negligible.

Generally the stronger winds are all from the west, and so are on shore winds from the beach I sail from....

When they are off shore.... the trees behind the beach do block the wind till you are farther out into the middle of the lake.


And you guys do raise interesting points... but nobody seems to have answered my original questions....

1) How could my boat have been slower in faster winds....
2) At what point does more wind speed stop equating to more boat speed...
and 3) At what point does the wind become so strong as to make sailing (the laser) unsafe, or basically a bad idea....



(Oh, and is there a way to depower the standard rig to make going out on those super hi wind days feasable)....
 
Dino00235 said:
1) How could my boat have been slower in faster winds....
2) At what point does more wind speed stop equating to more boat speed...
and 3) At what point does the wind become so strong as to make sailing (the laser) unsafe, or basically a bad idea....

(Oh, and is there a way to depower the standard rig to make going out on those super hi wind days feasable)....
Click to expand...
1. Anytime you are overpowered, you tend to be slower then at max power.
2. Once you are overpowered. I weigh about 210 right now - I find upwind at about 20kts I start to get overpowered. Reaches = about 22-25 kts. Downwind about 30kts.
3. Total judgement call based on a number of variables such as your skill at handling the boat, the condition of the hull and equipment, chances of being helped/rescued, physical condition including weight, and the importance of being out there.

Everyone is different so there is no hard and fast number that you can use. For example I have 35+ years of sailing, about 25 of those in singlehanded boats. I weigh 210. In summer conditions, I have no problem racing in 30 kts. In frostbiting conditions (air temps at or below freezing and water temps just slightly above freezing) I will race in 20-25 but think twice about going out in 30 kts. That's for racing. If I am just going out for a sail or to get time in the boat, I'll knock 5kts off those numbers. My equipment is as bulletproof as I can make it.

A good barometer of too much wind - when it's blowing so hard that you can't beam reach without capsizing or ragging (luffing) the sail a lot and you can't broad reach/run because the hull becomes too unstable in waves. Right now for me, that's over 30 kts.


As far as depowing the standard rig:
Max cunningham (grommet at or below the top of the boom) upwind.
Outhaul on so you have only about 3" distance between mid foot and boom
Vang on - hard for upwind. Reaches to depower, you actually want less vang then normal to twist the upper leach. Downwind - vang on

Back in the 70's there used to be a slalom regatta in San Fran on the bay - typical condition were 25 to 35+kts As a means to depower one answer was to "reef" by wrapping the sail a couple of times around the mast. It worked in that type of course and would work ok if you just had to be out sailing. That was before the Laser Radial though......
 
Many thanks.....

That is exactly what I am hoping for....


The winds get very strong here.... and I started out trying to use the "Is anybody else sailing in it?" method....

....but I have started to notice at the local club that unless conditions are 'ideal'.... nobody else shows up. Just a couple of windsurfers.

I am lucky, in that the prevailing winds (when strong) are onshore.... so the worst that would happen is that I capsize, and drift right back to the beach.... (It is VERY hard for me to sail out of the little 'bay' surrounding the beach when the winds are that strong)....


....but practice I guess..... and wrapping the sail should help me get more time on the lake. Where do you tie it so that it doesn;t 'unwrap'?
 
Dino00235 said:
....but practice I guess..... and wrapping the sail should help me get more time on the lake. Where do you tie it so that it doesn;t 'unwrap'?
Click to expand...
First, please note that reefing by wrapping will result in pretty awful sail shape.

However if that's how you want to proceed, you don't have to tie it anywhere additional. Before you wrap, make sure your cunningham is already in place, with a fair amount of tension on it. Then before you hook up the outhaul, throw in a couple of wraps, anything you can do to keep tension along the luff as you wrap will result in better shape later on.

You will need a longer then normal outhaul to deal with the fact the clew will be further away from the end of the boom.

Note also that the upwind characteristics change as the center of effort of the sail move forward. This will reduce weather helm (the tendency for the boat to head up by itself)

If you have a chance to sail a Radial in these conditions, I would suggest giving that a try. You'll find it's a better alternative then reefing. Again, for me @ 210lbs, to just go out and have fun, I can use a radial in 25 to 35 kts and have a blast.
 
"...If you have a chance to sail a Radial in these conditions, I would suggest giving that a try. You'll find it's a better alternative then reefing. Again, for me @ 210lbs, to just go out and have fun, I can use a radial in 25 to 35 kts and have a blast."

This is what I do in heavy winds in my recreational sailings. When I was in vacation in Holland, 3 weeks ago, there was much wind and wave and all that. Often 2 much for me, to take the Standard-sail and put also a risc on to break the mastsep of my old laserhull.
With the Radial-sail, fun was also really great and I did not so very much capsizings than with a full sail and I could do my way windward (to my habour) easyer and then back starting again to fly away downwinds oftener. :D

Ciao
LooserLu
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top