How much is a New Laser ???

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by Dr._Loser, Jun 20, 2008.

  1. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    For what its worth, I'll offer up my opinion, though I don't think I have any information that, in principle, we all don't already know.

    As of a couple of years ago there were five builders: Vanguard, Performance Sailcraft Australia, Performance Sailcraft Japan, Perforamance Sailcraft Japan and Primex. Of these, the first four were trademark holders (or maybe it was three, its never been clear to me if PSJ is a trademark holder or sublicensee) and the last was a sublicensee of PSE. The trademark holders have divided the world up (and these are rough boundaries so take this as for the sake of argument):
    1) North America and the Caribbean - Vanguard
    2) Japan and some parts of Asia - PSJ
    3) Australia and New Zealand - PSA
    4) The entire rest of the world - PSE

    PSE then sublicensed South America, excepting Brazil (don't ask me!), to Primex.

    Now we have three builders - PSJ, PSA and Laser Performance. Primex, as I understand it, went out of business so, in theory, all of South America reverts to LP territory.

    In terms of worldwide production, I believe LP is now responsible for producing better than 80% of all Lasers, between two factories.

    Here in North American (and in the EU as well, I'd guess), we don't really think about the distribution of boats so much... Canada, Mexico and the US are part of NAFTA, import duties from the US to Canada and Mexico are, I bet, not very much. When we buy a boat, its pretty much the same price in North America, I'm guessing, and includes the shipping cost from RI. In some states of the US we also pay sales tax (in the SF Bay Area it can be as high as 8.5%), but, at the end of the day, Lasers are still a bargain in sailing, especially considering the general level of activity in the region.

    But... if you live in Bermuda, or some of the Caribbean Islands, buying a new Laser involves lots of extra charges, in particular large import duites, that can really drive the price up. At the same time, the market in Bermuda or any given Caribbean Island is not large enough to support their own builder.

    According to ILCA's Central and South America contacts page, there are some 9 countries in South America with contacts, implying to me at least some level of Laser sailing there. I don't claim to know anything about South American politics and/or economics, but a problem for a South American builder is going to be exporting boats into the other countries, probably resulting in a higher price outside the country of production, ultimately affecting the overall demand, etc. It has to be really tough on a builder if he is only building, say 30-50 boats per year and then has to also be concerned about dealing with all sorts of import/export issues... I bet a contributing factor for why Primex, in the end, had to give up.

    Since I'm not expert in all the issues surrounding doing business in South America, nor am I at all involved in the efforts to resolve the situation, I'm not going to propose any solutions. But I think its a tough situation with, hopefully, a solution that transports to other areas of the world which are similarly affected.
     
  2. mlemieux1978

    mlemieux1978 New Member

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    Thanks Tracy, I think that summed the facts of the whole thread up nicely. Thats about what it ends up as then. Unless orders go up, there will be no builder in SA. Orders will not go up unless more people try out the boat, people who will have to pay extra to try the laser out. I hate to say it, but that sounds like the recipe for a shrinking class, at least it SA.
     
  3. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Well, personally, I'd not be so pessimistic and hope people don't misinterpret what I was trying to say. In the end, I'm sure that a solution will be found and I don't for a minute think Laser sailing is going to end in South America. However, there are challenges and I think its important to keep them in mind when discussing it on this thread.
     
  4. mlemieux1978

    mlemieux1978 New Member

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    I didn't think I forecast the death of the class. Its just that 10 large is a lot to pay. I'm not pulling that number out of the air, thats the price (16150 real) I got from the Boatspeed of Brasil webpage. I don't think anyone will misinterpret your statement of the facts as they are at this moment in public knowledge. The two closest builders are in Europe and the U.S. Its 5300 miles as the crow flies to Buenos Aires from NY and 9234 miles from Australia to Peru. It takes a lot of dead dinosaurs to go that far. Hopefully some of the production from the former Vanguard facility will go that way, as its shorter than London to Buenos Aires ( 6900 mi). ( these are statue miles by air) There are a lot of great sailors south of the equator and I hope they will always have great boats to sail, but those shipping distances and import costs are murder, as you state.
     
  5. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    .

    Thank you very much Mr.Tracy Usher, Miss Merrily, Mr. Rob B, Mr.fracisco, Mr mlemieux1978, Mr LooserLu and all the T.L.F. members that have understood what we wanted to say.

    I am so sorry because I know that I have been a "bad guy" with my ofensives messages, but I know that all of you can understand me.

    Excuse me, I am so sorry.

    Thanks to all

    Best regards.
    Alex :)
     
  6. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Dr Loser. I excuse you and I think we all do. All Laser sailors have passion for our boats and we sometimes get excited and carried away with ourselves!

    Don't be a stranger.
     
  7. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    As you know, I am a disobedient guy........

    I do not know if I can say this to T.L.F. members, but no problem.....
    you really deserved it !!!!!!!!!

    Tonight I am so happy !!!! :):):):):):):)

    Mr. Carlos Palombo has sent me an e-mail.
    It says that Mr. Heini Wellmann, President International Laser Class Association (ILCA)
    will meet him at Corsica to talk about the future of South Ameriaca Laser Class !!!!!!

    This is a begining, of course, for complex problems we do not need easy solutions.................this will take time.

    We are laser saliors, we must work for the ILCA.....SA belongs to ILCA !!!!

    Thanks everybody !!!!
    Alex
     
  8. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Congratulations. It's a first step. Hope that turns out well, Alex.
     
  9. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Congrats, also of my side of the globe, sukadas.

    But, as we here at TLF are at serious forum, we could do more, to help in that dilemma "sudakas", ILCA and the "out of the box boat builders" are.

    "mlemieux1978" did bring us back exact to the point of the issue.

    Perhaps, for a while, importing Lasers is a way to go. But is that a good/durable realistic way, to go for a longer time at SA?

    The situation, all I understand, is:
    - "sudakas" cannot pay so much money for an imported Laser, in reason the money (Brazilian"Real", Argentinian/Chilean"Peso") they earn "loses worth" (compared to the "US$" and "Euro") very-very quick.
    - To the opposite: the "out of the box boat builders" cannot rise down the price for a Laser to a limit where they get "less than Zero-profit".
    - ILCA is between that chairs, I guess.

    What ideas could help?

    Find a new licensed or "underlicensed" builder at SA. Workers at SA are cheap (and work in good quality), could be one of those ideas. The costs of delivering are much less than to get the Lasers form overseas. Perhaps a Laser then would only perhaps cost 6000 US$, instead of 11000 US$. Perhaps ~6000US$ is a level sudakas would pay, however they get the bucks together, but I imagine, for their kids, they would do all that it is possible.

    In my opinion, Heini is correct if he says, a "Laser (TM)" is only a "Laser (TM)" if the boat is built in 100% harmony with the so called "Constuction Manual". A very strong so called Quality Management" guarantees that (in theory...), but I think, is not easy to grow up such a "QM-System" from "level zero" ad SA. So, it needs time to find and check out a boatbuilder at SA, that is able to follow this strong preconditions (build a "Laser (TM)" like it has to be build and build a "Laser (TM)" that in the Laser store at SA not costs more than 6000US$).

    Next problem:
    Heini is correct in, I think, if aliens, like me or you, see how cheap a Laser is at SA, they/we want to have such cheap Laser, too. If we then try buy our Lasers and Laser parts at SA, the other "out of the box boat builders" and "Laser Direct" soon would have to close, in reason they not make enough profit to survive. Worldwide, we all rant about the high costs for a Laser and the Laserparts, yes. TLF is full of that rants in that point. But, this is problem I think we may not discuss in general here, in at this thread. It would be to much "out of topic".

    But I think, a big list of ideas, any ideas, would help to find solutions for SA. It would help our sudakas-friends at SA, ILCA, "out of the box boat builders" and "Laser Direct"-shops etc. to filter this ideas and check, what is useful and what not. Say it is a sort of "brainstorming"-process. And this table of ideas would be easy to find worldwide, here at TLF.

    We not should forget our Laserite friends in Afcria or Asia, I think they have the same problem like the Laserites of SA. But if it succesful one is able to find a way to reorganize the cheap construction and cheap delivering at SA, it would be helpful also for those Laserites.

    To make a little start of such ideas, my idea is that:

    Heini writes in his text at the "Laser World of September 20082, about the restrictions of selling and to buy Lasers and Laser parts world wide.

    So, there alread is a very clear officially opinion how we have "to play our game", if we want to get new/or used Lasers and Laser Parts.

    The problem is
    1.: to be honest and buy at the local dealer and
    2.:, if one goes around of that want buy not a the local dealer, how to stop buying a t a cheap dealer and resell the stuff to make some extra bucks.

    If I would be the one that has to decide for, I know you definitely do not love me for that: I would use the so called "RFID"-Chip-Technology for the hull (such a RFID-chip is to add during the production, at the mast-step-foot, under the anti-wearing-metal-disc and above the plywood of the mast step, there) , the centre-boards, the rudder, the sail.
    Why? If one is able to find out from where this parts come from (with this cheap technology it is very easy), a competitor gets big problems at the measurement at official races (the measurement has to be done of course, but it is very common at other sailing classes to measure the boats at officially regattas) if she/he is not from SA, but tries to race with Laser parts from SA.
    The class-rules of the Laser would be able, to get an addition at the By-laws therefore somewhere. Yes, it would be a great restriction and also big concessionof honor of us other Laserites to proceed in this way, but it would be possible. There is many to discuss on this,if this is a good way and if it is really practicable, I know, I know....
    Laser parts, where it is not possible to add a RFID-Chip (Vang-Basic-Block, aluminium-spars, aluminium-rudder-head) it is possible f.e. to irrevocable engrave that this parts are from SA.


    I add: It is already proved reality, if someone Laserite of Europe comes to the stupid-"idea", to import a Laser from "PSE Japan" into the European Union, the EU-customs officers (f.e. at Rotterdam harbour, Netherlands) deny the import and the Laser is send back to Japan. I could imagine, to find a worldwide-procedure for the essential Laser parts (hull, blades, rudder-head, spars, sail), built in SA, too.

    I hope there will be more ideas and additions, I'm not perfect in all , in my idea, but perhaps other ideas are better.
    It would be great to read about this ideas here at this thread, how to rise down the cost for the Laser at SA and to initiate a realistic delivering system for SA.

    All the best and Happy Sailing with our loved "weekender"-dinghy
    LooserLu
     
  10. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    T.L.F. Members:

    I have recieved a message of Mr. Carlos Palmbo from Corsica.


    Yesterday, at the Euro Masters Ceremony Awards in Corsica, Mr. Heini Wellmann, President International Laser Class Association (ILCA) and Mr. Carlos Palombo, ARG Laser Class President, they have been together having dinner.

    They have had a long and very important meeting to resolve the S.A. problems.

    I do not have more info now, but I am sure that

    Things are much better now !!!!

    Thanks to all of you, the T.L.F. CREW !!!!!!

    Alex

    :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
     
  11. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    That's good news, but it will take significant time for the situation to improve in SA, I am afraid.
     
  12. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    *************************************************************


    Dear members of T.L.F.........I miss you !!!!!!

    Do you remember this ?????

    Now the info is ok at ILCA's site!!!!!

    http://www.laserinternational.org/wc.htm

    Mr. Carlos Palombo (ARG) is Central & South America Vice Chairman.

    Things are getting better..............for all of us !!!!!!!

    Alex :):):):):):):):):):):)
     
  13. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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  14. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    This new price is from NAUTOS,
    THE NEW LASER DEALER from S.A.


    $R 14.252 Brazilian Real(s) = 6.487.62 US Dollar(s)

    1 USD = 2.1968 BRL
    1 BRL = 0.455208 USD

    Alex
     
  15. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Will Nautos be building new boats, or just importing from LP ?
     
  16. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    I do not know if the boats are made at Brasil or are imported from other place.

    These prices were from last week before the economical disaster in the whole world......we'll see in the future

    The big difference between prices of the past posts is because the value of Real now is R$ 2,20. per u$s
    ( at that time was 1,70.-) and the priece of Boatspeed was R$ 18.000.-........(now is 14.000 )

    This is a solution for Brasil, to have boats for almost u$s 7.000.-
    ......but if I want to import it to ARG, the price will be almost u$s 9.000.-.......

    .......and this is so difficult time for business !!!!!

    ....we must keep waiting........a solution is coming in the future

    Alex:)
     
  17. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    The "Secret Meeting at London" is not a movie.

    It was a meeting of the ILCA World Chairmen in these past Octouber days.
    For South America was present our President, Mr Fanucci from Brasil.

    Me and you, as common laserites, can we read anything about it ????
    .....where ?????

    Chau Chabón ( In Arg Slang= bye bye guy )
    Alex:)
     

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