Golf style handicapping?

SFBayLaser

SFBayLaser

Member
Everything I know about golf: Tiger Woods is a golfer and he makes a lot of money at it.

But... the following was stolen from this evenings Scuttlebutt:



HOW TO MAKE SAILING BETTER, RIGHT NOW! -- Philippe Kahn
Here are some thought about what we can learn from the success of golf (I am not a golfer!)

1. Introduce Sailing handicaps in regattas like golf handicaps: In golf a beginner can play against Tiger on the same course at the same time and have a real competition. The handicap system works wonders and makes any game a real challenge. Why not do the same in a regatta. A beginner in the Star fleet would get for example 125 points from Torben Grael in a 9 race event encompassing 40 boats, and so on. Then we'd post the corrected results in the rating computer and after a little while this would make the handicaps as good and interesting as they are in golf. Now we get to race against everyone at all levels, and the competition is meaningful. They play 18 holes in golf, we race 9 races over a weekend. Same principle.

(there was more, but this is the point for this thread, to see the rest go to www.sailingscuttlebutt.com)



Comments?

Fred, er..., Keeldude, er..., RudderDude, er..., Gouvernail?
 
Here's my two cents,
Great idea, now the thing to discuss is implementation... set a handicap race and utilize time difference from leader over a known course? Or maybe set a couple of bouys,boat at each bouy to record times. Use a no tacking course, time each run through the "Speed trap", go through 10 times... use a upwind trap, down wind trap and maybe a reach with trap course. Average those times and rate your average behind the best finisher for that "trap run". By using each leg to figure it will level the advantage of a person faster upwind then down or vice versa, lighter verses heavier, old boat/new boat, crispy/crappy sail speed differences. Sounds like it would make for a fun regatta set-up too.... Establish Laser speed records for the 1/4 mile beat, broad reach & run... Post your personal best times on TLF...
Or do you just time each race and establish a handicap system with in a club or district?
Heck why not take something from skiing. Salom course's Side by side pairs racing. Use a ladder format, double elimination bracket.
All kinds of idea's running through my head... Let's hear some others.
Fishingmickey
150087/181157
 
I think you want to adhere to "simple" as much as possible, hence one would want to look at previous results to form a "handicap". The problem, of course, is that regattas are variable in the numbers of competitors so one has to "normalize" out the number of boats. But then how might a handicap work?

Here is the first thing that comes to mind (with no attempt to test):
1) Take the last 6-7 regattas, toss your best and worst,
2) For each remaining regatta, divide your finish by the number of competitors in the event,
3) Take the average to form the handicap (this a number between 0 and 1).

In the next regatta you do the following to score each race:

race score = race finish position / (handicap * number of boats in regatta)

For example, say you race on Lake Hypothetical and there are always 10 boats in the race and you always win every race. So, your handicap is 0.1. Your friend always finishes 10th, his handicap is 1.0.

In the next regatta, you, as always, finish first in a 10 boat fleet. Your score for the race is 1 / (0.1 * 10) = 1 as it should be. But now your friend's score is 10 / (1.0 * 10) = 1 as well.

So, you have achieved parity (without the need to practice!). Anyway, like I said, I have not thought any more than during the time my fingerrs have typed, I'm sure there is something better out there, so let's hear it!

Of course, a handicap system works because it rates average performance and people do better or worse depending on conditions, day of the week, etc. So... it "evens" things up.

Certainly not something for a "major" event but maybe worth "local" events?
 
The handicapping systems all need the same thing to get started...Somebody has to have enough passion to scxore a few demonstration events so others can see the possibilitiesand possibly join in the effort. Masters handicapping got rolling and seems to have stuck.
I have had a few ideas about handicaps we might try, Mostly I have also been too lazy or lacking in personal passion about those handicaps to actually spend the necessary effort to demonstrate how "great my idea" might have been.

I also believe handicap[ping is ponly suitable locally...On a practical level, I suppose I could easily be the fellow who runs a weeknight series where eacxh sailor gets a head start based upon his average relative finish time.

Maybe I will get the locals to let me sit on the rc baot and run staggered starts for an evening. All I would need is a calculator and somebody else to actually run the races while I frantically calculated each finish and adjusted the start times for the next race...and a cooperative fleet.

it would be hectic..

The guyus who finished three minutes behind would be allowed to start 3 minutes ahead in the next race and so on to the winner who would have to start on time.

I would need medium to light air and a good bull horn.

Hmmmmmmm

maybe we could do that

lota work


anybody want to try a new sailing song??

open the link at the bottom of the page and sing along with the words listed...

Hey there skipper
Hey there Crewguy
Hey there other sailor
C'mon and gether round ye children
To the gospel I'm a spillin
Lord don't want you protesting each other

He's the one who makes the place
for our every sailing race
And we're bound to go and tune with one another

For that giant sailing race up in the sky
Where the sound of sailor voices makes those angels want to cry
Every race is our audition
All we got to do is die
to join that giant sailing race up in the sky

Now once I traveled down the path
where only sinners be
oh I met some guys with powerboats
and they made me water ski
With sex and drugs and big outboards
I was blinded by the lie
until the spirit of those Hereschoffs showed me how the folks get high

In that giant sailing race up in the sky
where the sound of sailor voices makes those angels want to cry
Every race is our audition, all we got to do is die
to join that giant sailing race up in the sky

You gotta trim and keep your boat real flat and always do your best
You gotta round all the buoys and pass that string test
Oh I heard it from St Peter . He's a guy who ought to know
You can walk right through those pearly gates if you've been a P R O
been a P R O

OH OH we've gone astray We've lost our way. We're about to take a fall
If we don't get together soon you know old Lucifer will call
and when you let the devil on the bay a good race can turn bad
with missing marks and general recalls
But not that giant sailing race up in the sky
where the sound of sailor voices makes those angels want to cry
every race is out audition all we've got to do is die
to join that giant sailing race up in the sky
'
OH OH that giant sailing race up in the sky
where the sounds of sailor voices makes those angels want to cry
Every race is our audition All we got to do is die to join that giant sailing race up in the sky

Well every race is our audition All we've got to do is die
to join that giant sailing race up it the sky




The link to the music....
It will open up realplayer (if you have it) and play the tune. You must substitute the words for the ones used...They simply got it wrong...

http://206.180.232.42/clips/ram/choirinthesky.ram
 
gouvernail said:
The handicapping systems all need the same thing to get started...Somebody has to have enough passion to scxore a few demonstration events so others can see the possibilitiesand possibly join in the effort. Masters handicapping got rolling and seems to have stuck.
I have had a few ideas about handicaps we might try, Mostly I have also been too lazy or lacking in personal passion about those handicaps to actually spend the necessary effort to demonstrate how "great my idea" might have been.
Click to expand...


Or... somebody who has access to several sets of results from a series could go back and develop each sailor's "average" (like a batting average) from the previous events. They could then run a separate scoring sheet at the rest of the series events, adjusting the "averages" (based on raw scores) after each event. So, everyone could see how they finish just like always, but for fun they could see how they did on a handicap scoring system.

Perhaps the ever efficient Cedar Point gang are in the perfect position to play with something like this? As they developed it they could answer some of the questions (e.g. what "average" do you assign the new guy?).

The whole point of something like this is to get more participation, primarily at the local level. Just like in golf, its clearly not for the big time.
 
The trick with sailing is that it's fun/tactical to start together and fun to fininsh together. Separating "A" and "B" fleets does this but it is better to have more boats sailing together particularly if the fleet lacks critical mass of sailors. Timing/calculations are less than optimal because you don't know who won till after the race, points are the same way.

Here's my 2 cents on a handicapping solution (btw I know nothing of golf or skiiing). Have the faster boats sail a slightly longer course - set say 2, 3, or 4 leward marks that are an estimated (by RC) to be say 5%, 10%, 15% longer/shorter courses for "A, B, C, D" level handicaps. That way the leaders have to work their way back through the slower boats - who learn more from watching the tactics of the leaders go by. This also means less waiting around by the leaders for the last boats to finish. Also if a fleet champion is considerably better than his local competition, sailing back through the fleet improves tactical skills, which he will need for District, and National level racing. With this handicap system, local leader could have some challenge on the water without having to drive 4 hours to a major regatta.

For scoring/trophies (not to make things too complicated - but I don't think we want to hand out the big trophy hardware to novices), if you go around a shorter course, you add points to your total - say 1 point for every boat that took a longer course than you did. When you finish you call out to the race committee which course you sailed "Alpha, Bravo, Charley, Delta" (honor system - like golf?) and after the race they add in points to drop you back to your proper position. But for while you are on the water you get the gratification of "hey I finished top of the fleet - I'm doing GOOD". By calling out scores you could either have boats assigned to "A, B, C, D" fleets on a somewhat fixed basis - perhaps a colored ribbon to indicate which fleet you sail in. If you are regularly winning the race you should probably move to the next handicap level. Or you could let the boats adjust based on how they are doing that day, in those conditions (e.g. if you capsize soon after the start, sail the short course). There may be a whole tactical element to this I haven't thought through. It certainly changes the nature of covering when you are in the lead. Every "B, C, D" fleet boat an "A" fleet leader can put between himself and your next closest "A" fleet competitor creates added advantage. - Thus a really big win can be more valuable than an ahead by a nose win.

If we use standard percentages it would allow handicaps to be transferable across courses/venues. I recognize no one wants to wait longer for the RC to set marks with a calculator, but it would be easier to in areas where the course marks are fixed. A cheap GPS on the race committee boat would help to aproximately measure setting the closer marks a specific distance (e.g. 50 ft.) from one another. Actually someone could probably write a software program that would let you input the GPS positions of the A course marks, and it would output the GPS postion of "B, C, D" leward marks (I know too complicated - but for the future this could be an integrated handheld device). As the committee selects longer (multi-lap) courses (for more wind), the handicap adjusts to the increased distance. Boats would be required to sail the same "A, B, C, D" handicap for the whole race (no "A" on the first lap then "D" on the second lap). The distance of the mark handicap could be adjusted based on how spread-out the fleet is rather than an estimated fixed percentage (but this would then make it a purely local rating system) or better yet if a fleet had no "A" level (would class sailors), "B" level (top national sailors), or "C" (District leaders), it would, only need to set perhaps "D" (Fleet leaders), "E" (top half of fleet), "F" (bottom half of fleet). Novice sailors could be "G, H, I," etc. just Opti's use Blue, Red, Green, White fleets (I can't remember the order) for age and experience level. When you finish first in a regatta (ahead of all the adjusted fleets, you move up a level to sail a longer course, if you finish behind all the fleets you can move back down a level. The point is the RC would only need to set marks for the handicaps of people acutally participating in the regatta.

Lots of folks have done something a little like this for slower boats by telling them they can skip the last mark (or lap) of the course (in order to get the next race started), but this always feels like a let down for them (that they didn't really finish) and any of those that sail the whole course but finish behind the slower boats feel bad unless the scores are adjusted.

Let me know what y'all think of what I'll call the "Mackey Rating System" and if anyone wants to try it out. Perhaps this could also be used when sailing boats of different classes like the Portsmouth Rating but adding the fun of closer boat to boat action on the water. - Lasers would have to re-pass fast Optimist sailors on each lap.
 
Hmmmm .... I don't now. Think about this for a second. All the rating system would do is garnish folks trophies, and places in regattas. Would it really teach one to sail better, or help to create those lasting relationships we find in our laser fleets????

That is part of the reason most of us commit to these laser fleets, its for freindship, fun, and advancing racing skills. I don't think a rating system will advance racing skills, unless it just flat out ensures that folks that try laser racing commit to future laser racing. Personally I think that folks that try laser racing and then give up after a race or a season, shouldn't be racing lasers any ways.

Phillipe is a great guy, and I have met/raced against him personally in Melges 24 sailing. I think this type of a system would be okay for larger fleets that have issues keeping committed boats. They would have to be adminisistered carefully, i.e. driver owner rules, # of pros on a boat and such.

Just my 99.9 cents ......
 
That's the whole point of the shorter leward bouy idea. It keeps the fleet together. By getting the leaders and the laggards closer physically to each other on the water a lot more learning can occur, and better relationships develop. As it is now the fleet is only together at the start - when beginners are freaked out by so many boats being around them :(, and leaders are focused on tactical jockeying at the line vs. sailing for speed :cool:. With the longer course leaders will work to re-pass the lagards (one at a time) on each lap which gives an opportunity for on-water coaching while both boats are sailing for speed. :D

I imagine it more as a dinghy thing - with the skipper owning the handicap, rather than keelboats with lots of people on board. Also one wouldn't handicap specific hull/sail numbers (it would be like handicapping a set of golf clubs - if you get a better set and improve your game, your handicap drops I presume). As for trophies don't try to take any trophys away from the fastest sailors (some bite back), adding points to the finish of those that sail the shorter course evens it out so the trophies go to the fastest sailors who sail the longest courses. I hate the games I've seen where people sandbag to stay in the "B" fleet so they can win a trophy (Juniors and Masters are different because there is no sandbagging).

I agree it would be tricky to set up, best to start local and simple - say one venue, 2 classes (A & B). Figure it out, work out the bugs, then let it grow.
 
That sounds great in theory, but sure would be a mess when it comes to practice. Clean air going around that far leeward mark would be far and in between.

Imagine your in 1st, 2nd or 3rd, and have to go around that far leward mark only to find that every single leg is taken up by other boats that were behind you. And not to bash the boats that would be behind you, but much more difficult diggin out of fleet from the back than say the top third.

I like diggin my self out of holes, but that would take the cake.
 
I think you are right, perhaps the windward mark would be better as the varying distance mark. I was also thinking with the leward mark, if an "inside" boat was going to the far mark, and an "outside" boat wanted to turn around the near mark, that would be difficult. For the windward mark this wouldn't be an issue as normal port & starbord would apply and the laylines would be different.

With the windward mark as the differential, the "A" fleet would have clear air to try to gain-on/pass the "B" fleet downwind. Within the "A & B" fleets the boats would be reasonably spread out. I imagine using this mostly at regattas with less than a dozen boats per class.

We sail a lot of these locally with say 6-8 boats that get spread out in the first leg with a significant difference in speed. Once you get ahead it becomes "just don't blow it", and stay on the same side of the course as the closest competion just to be sure you aren't on the wrong end of a wind shift. The next closest boat may be 10 boat lengths behind so no chance to practice boat on boat tactics or close covering. Kind of boring. It's not as obvious when you make a bad tack, miss a lift, etc. If you are behind by that much, you basically ignore the boat ahead if and focus on the part of the fleet closer to you.

At bigger regattas with more competition, you usually find yourself behind, your mistakes are more aparent, and your in great need of those tactics for "digging yourself out of a hole". The goal for this system would be to make racing with 8 local boats feel a little more like racing 20 competitive boats. Wouldn't it be great to have practiced those catching & passing skills all year with local competitors? As you mentioned - its all about teaching one to sail better.
 
Multiple leeward marks sounds cool and simple.
1. Our 25 boat fleet usually finishes the short Wednesday night courses with 90% of the fleet across wiothin a couple hundred feet.
2. We know who the five or so sailors are who will be winning races on any given night.
3. A two mark system is simple to create. it takes , two buoys, 100 feet of linking line, two weights to hold that line below our blades, one anchor line, and somebody to set up the course.
4. The leaders should be able to sail to the "leewarder" mark and back up to the "top leeward" mark such that they arrive as the back of the fleet is rounding that top leeward mark.
5. Nobody goes straight upwind and since the leewarder mark is free floating on a string, it will always be directly downwind of the less leeward mark. The leaders will be as far as 100 feet to one side or the other as they pass the less leeward mark.


I think I will set this up the next time I do RC duty for Wednesday races. All I will need is some cooperation and I can send the hotshots on a longer course.

THis is certainly not golf style handicapping but I do think it is simple enough for a lazy bum like me to be willing.

and it might make some folks have more fun.

Sure Renee will have sailed extra distance but I am pretty certain the rush or finally crossing a half boatlength in front of her will thrill Eric.
 
Wow....you guys certainly have put a lot of thought into this. It seems like a diifferent approach for some fun times, and worth looking into.

It's interesting that, as long as I have played golf, tho, I have not once attempted to play by the handicap. Truth be told, when I see the 'degree-of-difficulty' indicators on the scorecards I am always scatching my head. I never bothered to figure it out. I am STILL trying to break 100 ( even tho I shot an 86 when 14 ( am 46 now)). I have always just wanted to see how well I can do against pro standards. I consider THAT,the game..

I am about to buy my first Laser, and I would probably appreciate a bit of handicapping off the start, if only to garner some tips from the more talented.

I believe you are all correct in saying this would be a local thing. When you have so many folks of all different abilities getting together on the race course, you don't want to alienate anyone. If you are REALLY good, and you seem to win every race, then maybe the simplest way would be to have that person start the race behind everyone else at his/her average winning 'gap' (relating to, say, the middle of the fleet. That way, if everyone has a good day the chance of beating this person would be there. Also, it would not bore the faster racer, as he/she would have that extra challenge to overtake everyone.....

Keep the ideas flowing guys...
 
I'm just making this up, but I'm really pleased to see others are interested in it.

Man would I love a 25 boat fleet for Wednseday night sailing, if we get 8 once a month we are doing good - but I race a Lido 14.

The problem with a staggered start is that the start is probably the most important time of the race, and a key element to practice. Getting across the line when your countdown hits zero is easy, being at the favored end when all the other boats want to be in the same place, with clear air, no one luffing you up, and speed to not get rolled by the boat to windward - that's what takes practice. Telling the leaders to start later on their own would take a lot out of the race for them. But going a little farther in the middle, so they have to work to pass boats on a shorter course (possibly on every lap) - that adds fun and challenge for the guys up front. It also creates more learning opportunities for those further back.

If you try it let me know how it works out. I'll bring up the idea at our club to see if I can get any support but our next regatta isn't till may.
 
The idea of trying to have the boats handicapped by course length may work for smaller fleets, but it would be a nightmare for scoring on larger fleets. As it is now at Cedar Point (40-60 boats) we have to adjust course length so we avoid too many boats going around a mark or finishing at the same time.

The "number" handicap (ala Masters scoring and SFBayLaser's suggestion) would be the way to go as the number of boats on the starting line get over 10 IMHO.
 
Hi:

Two ideas for a fleet building day/evening.

The longer course could be a wing mark that the "A" boats have to go around, while the others go straight downwind. Adjust the wing, so the leaders round the leeward kinda deep in the crowd, so the 2nd beat is the most crowded. At each finish, the top 2 or 3 get told they now are "A's" and have to do the longer course for the rest of the day/night. Hopefully, you'll soon have 1/2 going long, and about 1/2 the short course.

The goal would be to let the "B's" get some top 5 or 10 finishes that excite them, and let them spend some time covering the hotshot "A's", and studying their moves close up. And the "A's" get some dirty air practice that they'll need in the next big fleet regatta they do.

I think an adjustable wing would be better than Fred's fixed extra distance, which would be hard to get the right distance/time penalty. Plus the racing rules would work better, than with an extra windward or leeward which can create some awkward situations. Plus it's easy to have a Laser beam reach the wing mark in or out. Make it the first "A's" job, as he goes by (to mix up the A fleet a bit, lol).

Al Russell 182797
 
Wing mark and multiple leeward marks both seem like things to try.

Advantages of leeward system? the fleet stays together . the multiple leeward marks are easy to set up
the multiple leeward marks could be sailed as a slalom from the bottom for the entire fleet...watch out for carnage.

advantage of the reach mark...reaches are fun and the fasyt guys might be less inclined to whine.

doenside...the new slow guys don't get to sail the fun reaches

What about my rope dragging concept.

The rope could be a 15 foot 3/8 line tied to the bow eye. Faster sailors would have to tie more figure eight knots in the line. . The difference in drag just might be enough to equalize the fleet.
 
Having a handicap is retarted, what you are saying is that the realy good sailors have a high handicap and have time added to them were the worse sailors dont (Joe Shmo could theroeticaly beat Robert Schiet wtf thats stupid). If you want that, race phrf or go crew on a boat on wendsday nights. I think the great thing with one design is whoever wins, wins theres no time added or subtracted.
 
OliLaser said:
Having a handicap is retarted....
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting our proposals relate to promiscuous English women?

Actually, the OFFICIAL HANDICAP SYSTEM in most every sport is not there just for the benefit of those who would otherwise lose. Lots of us play games more for the joy of competition than for the joy of beating everybody else and showing off how superior we are.

In Bowling and Golf, the organizations have official handicap systems which allow for very real competition among a wider range of competitors. PHRF is not about individuals but about boats and allows sailors who own racing sailboats to play in big fleets with people who own cruisers.

With respect to Lasers, The guy who started this thread and I would probably not have much fun racing against you in a breeze of over about 12 knots. We would sail a little while, stop and wait, sail a while, stop and wait and when we turned downwind, we would probably have to wait when you stopped for occasional swims.
We probably will not be able to have a race to the finish where we all get to try our hardest the entire time...unless...we figure out a way to give you some sort of better chance.

My guess is, the three of us would have more fun "racing" around the San Francisco bay if Tracy and I dragged a line off our bows with about five knots in those lines.
You would probably manage to keep up and there would be real competition for all of us.

About Scheidt??

Lining up near Scheidt on a starting line is a hoot. Generally, I can see his transome within ten seconds of the start and the "race" between us is over.

If I and guys like me were the only other available competitors, Robert would quit from the boredom.

Or we could invent a new game and play.

I believe Robert is competitive enough that he would enjoy trying to beat me while dragging a dinghy...whether he win by an inch, or lost by a foot.

Competition ain't fun when there ain't competition
 
This has been an interesting and thoughtful discussion. To alleviate the fears of OliLaser, somewhat careful reading of the thread clearly indicates that a handicap system would only be used once in a while as something to try at the club level.

A simple thought: the proposed handicapping system seems a bit complex, as has been pointed out. What about just splitting the fleet in two (50/50) after the first race and give the faster group a later start (to be determined by the conditions and the length of the course) in the second race. This is easy to implement and everyone would still have to deal with all the tactics etc. If a sailor ended up in the middle during the first race and wasn't sure about his/her standing, he/she would sail by the RC (which one needs to do anyway) and ask for which group he/she qualified. One could also make 50/50 splits after every race. Wouldn't that be interesting? This idea (and most of the others in this thread) would only 'work' with at least 10 boats or so.

I realize that this proposal incorporates ideas from the other comments :eek: ; but I don't think that my stealing warrants a 720...
 
I know what Phrf is what im saying is that if you want a handi cap race in a fleet of unsimmilar boars NOT one designs thats what makes one design so great you know whos in 1 2 3 4 5 as soon as your done racing and if your not very good well guess what theres like 182000 lasers out there chances are theres gona be someone who races whos as good as you so you can have competiotion
 
You guys may be on to something. A Golf 'style' handicap may give a workable way of introducing something like a 'distance based' handicap system (as opposed to corrected time).

In some locations (particularly small inland lakes above sea level) frequently prevailing conditions are such that 'Distance' and not 'Time' is potentially a better basis for handicapping, at least in a one design fleet (comprising boats and skippers of various ages and race conditioning).

Some technical papers on handicapping systems (by experts) seem to agree with this notion, but because most fleets sail in breeze and not the light airs typical of some lakes in late summer (and the practical difficulties in implementing such a system without pursuit race formats) very few clubs and associations seem to consider the possible benefits.

GL
 
OliLaser said:
I know what Phrf is what im saying is that if you want a handi cap race in a fleet of unsimmilar boars NOT one designs thats what makes one design so great you know whos in 1 2 3 4 5 as soon as your done racing and if your not very good well guess what theres like 182000 lasers out there chances are theres gona be someone who races whos as good as you so you can have competiotion
Click to expand...

Wow. Those are some interesting words that young (I'm guessing) people use when they're angry and can't type. Ignoring him, the rest of the discussion has been very interesting. Being new to laser racing (haven't actually raced yet, just practicing and working on the boat), I like the idea of actually being close enough to someone to compare boat speed. If I were to be in a non-handicapped race I would be so far behind that like someone said earlier (I don't remember who) it would not matter what I did, I would still be really far behind, too far to tell if I was gaining or (more likely) falling farther behind. One problem that I am thinking of at the moment, which wouldn't really be a big deal for most people but could affect the outcome of the races in a handicap system, is the weather. Sailing is so dependent on the weather, unlike golf or bowling, that if someone should have been farther ahead then they are, they may have hit that shift they needed instead of being handicapped and missing it. But that shouldn't matter really, it's all about having fun anyway.
 
kch88 said:
Sailing is so dependent on the weather, unlike golf or bowling, that if someone should have been farther ahead then they are, they may have hit that shift they needed instead of being handicapped and missing it. But that shouldn't matter really, it's all about having fun anyway.
Click to expand...

I assume in your handicap system, you mean the better sailors have to start later, rather than getting a points handicap. If that's the case, the better sailor will still know the shifts and play them to best advantage. Beyond that, "there's always a particle of risk in any enterprise."* That's part of the fun. Anything can and does happen!

Merrily


*So says the snake oil salesman in "Little Big Man."
 
personaly i wouldnt want it. cause what if you are sailing really hard and you get 2nd and another guy who is new to the laser gets 5th and beats you because of handicapping. an example that is sort of similar is today in a regatta i saw a kid that was brand new to the 4.7 and had only sailed it once before. he was having a real hard time throughtout the regatta so they gave him some coaching from start to finish. well he beat a kid who had no coaching at all. the coached kid had a huge advantage but it is good in the sense that he won't just quit or get upset about getting last in every race and not race again.

excuse my spelling.
 
kch88 said:
One problem that I am thinking of at the moment, which wouldn't really be a big deal for most people but could affect the outcome of the races in a handicap system, is the weather. Sailing is so dependent on the weather, unlike golf or bowling, that if someone should have been farther ahead then they are, they may have hit that shift they needed instead of being handicapped and missing it. But that shouldn't matter really, it's all about having fun anyway.
Click to expand...

Well I guess that's why this idea of handicapping is best left to the local 'fun' races. Of course, sailing is also about taking advantage of shifts and other weather, and there are just too many variables in any one race to be able to accurately determine a 'just' handicap'.

I mean, all things being equal with, say, 2 boats, one could be 50 feet from the other and be getting great wind, only to die out 50 feet away...too late for the other boat. An extreme example, but luck also plays a part in winning. That's why I am anxious to start racing...mainly skill determines the outcome. Everyone has things they need to improve or work on, unless you are a rob sheidt ( even HE has days.....)

Look at sprint or long-distance running. Just a bunch of guys running. But each has different length legs, weight, and stamina. Each trains differently. Each brings a different approach to the race, as well as overall physical and emotional differences.

I should really start a new thread on how small differences in athletes can change the outcome of a competition and to what end should we divide up the events. We now have the Lasers in age classes. Do we need weight classes as well?

Just wondering......
 
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