polyester and epoxy bonding

[peterpilotboy]

Everything I have read on laser repair has recommended the use of epoxy. However, my understanding is that epoxy and polyester do not like to bond.

I worked for a short time building carbonfiber outrigger canoes. After we would spray the molds with gel coat (polyester-based), we would follow up with a layer of a Duratec primer which bonds with both epoxies and polyesters because our layup was with epoxy.

Could anyone with more extensive technical composites knowledge please respond? I am contemplating a major deck delamination repair and want to use the right materials.

 

[snipeguy]

Epoxy bonds to polyester no problem but polyester doesn't bond to epoxy worth a hoot. That's the simple answer. Polyester is cheaper and faster but not as strong, although often strong enough.

If the repair can be done in polyester, do so. Otherwise use epoxy with the appropriate technique.

Is this a drilling and syringing kind of repair?

 

[peterpilotboy]

Snipeguy,

Thanks for the clarification. I'm thinking that the repair might require more than drilling and syringing - I think most of the deck is pretty soft, but I haven't looked in any inspection ports yet to assess the extent oif the damage. I was wondering if it's possible or feasible to take the entire deck off and reinstall the foam core. Even if I do get the deck off, I'm not sure that I'd be able to vacuum-bag the new foam/chopstrand layup without the deck being in a mold, and I'm pretty sure that vacuuming would be necessary to permeate the layup.

Any further suggestions?

 

[snipeguy]

Anythings possible. What you have to ask yourself is is it worth doing the work; and it sounds like a lot of work. Taking the deck of (it's possible) is a huge undertaking and the boat will never be near perfect. I run a boat shop and if you were a customer I'd tell you to buy a new (used) boat as it would be cheaper. If it were my boat, I'd drill the deck full of holes and put it up in the ceiling near the heater for the winter. In the spring I'd pump it full of cream cheese and goo (polyester and filler) and live with whatever happened. Make it your club racer/farting around/practice boat. Save the loonies for a decent used boat.

 

[gouvernail]

Friends don't let friends take decks off Lasers.

I am another boat shop guy who just does not think taking a deck off is a good idea.
Honestly and with total straight face I suggest the following.

This assumes you have a job or are a student or already have a "life budget" of some sort. If you have unlimited funds see the second answer.

First answer: Get a night shift job at any local fast food place or convenience store. Enjoy the job for a few weeks. Meet new friends. Have fun. Learn about that life. Be nice to the folks who hold the jobs around you.
Take the extra money and buy a new or almost new Laser.

Second answer: Buy a new toy.
Or
if you just have lots of time and money? and you want to try fixing a toy. Enjoy yourself!! Put a TV in the garage and buy a bunch of tools AND IMPORTANT cartridge masks for your face. Plan to spend a couple hundred hours on the project and plan to have a questionable flexible old hull capped by a newly repaired an stiff deck. You will neither save money nor time but if you enjoy fixing stuff just to play with tools and plastics do it!!!

I have. I don't anymore. I advise you to not follow my footsteps. I have a clear kharma if you do. No! I won't help. I am not that mean. I won't coach. I already did that. (see number one.)

 

[Merrily]

First answer: Get a night shift job at any local fast food place or convenience store. Enjoy the job for a few weeks. Meet new friends. Have fun. Learn about that life. Be nice to the folks who hold the jobs around you.
Take the extra money and buy a new or almost new Laser.

It would take more than a few weeks at a second job to buy a near new Laser. Five months at least, but your point about working on a blown out old boat is taken.

Merrily

 

[snipeguy]

Friends don't let friends take decks off Lasers.

I am another boat shop guy who just does not think taking a deck off is a good idea.
Honestly and with total straight face I suggest the following.

This assumes you have a job or are a student or already have a "life budget" of some sort. If you have unlimited funds see the second answer.

First answer: Get a night shift job at any local fast food place or convenience store. Enjoy the job for a few weeks. Meet new friends. Have fun. Learn about that life. Be nice to the folks who hold the jobs around you.
Take the extra money and buy a new or almost new Laser.

Second answer: Buy a new toy.
Or
if you just have lots of time and money? and you want to try fixing a toy. Enjoy yourself!! Put a TV in the garage and buy a bunch of tools AND IMPORTANT cartridge masks for your face. Plan to spend a couple hundred hours on the project and plan to have a questionable flexible old hull capped by a newly repaired an stiff deck. You will neither save money nor time but if you enjoy fixing stuff just to play with tools and plastics do it!!!

I have. I don't anymore. I advise you to not follow my footsteps. I have a clear kharma if you do. No! I won't help. I am not that mean. I won't coach. I already did that. (see number one.)

I'm having a hard time finding the purpose of this post other than you telling peterpilotboy and I what idiots we are. I find your post quite rude and judgemental.

First of all, I never suggested for a minute that he take the deck off. I only said it's possibble. I suggest you read my post again.

After reading your post many times, I get that you and I are basically telling him to do the same thing, except you are doing it while telling him he is stupid and how he should live his life. You've also taken it upon yourself to make some pretty wide assumptions on his life situation. I think peterpilotboy just wanted some friendly advice, not a tirade on what he shouldn't do or what I should tell him to do.

I haven't been on this forum for long but I have been around Lasers and boatshops since the beginning and I don't appreciate an angry post about some advice I never gave. I've read some of your other posts and you've obviously got a burr up your butt. You've also got some good things to say. Stick to the latter, treat evryone with respect and you'll be better off. That's my advice to you.

Oh, yeah; you don't have a kharma, you either get it or receive it for your actions. Good actions done out of love and selflessness bring on good kharma and I don't have to tell you what the converse option is.

 

[Rob B]

I'm having a hard time finding the purpose of this post other than you telling peterpilotboy and I what idiots we are. I find your post quite rude and judgemental.

First of all, I never suggested for a minute that he take the deck off. I only said it's possibble. I suggest you read my post again.

After reading your post many times, I get that you and I are basically telling him to do the same thing, except you are doing it while telling him he is stupid and how he should live his life. You've also taken it upon yourself to make some pretty wide assumptions on his life situation. I think peterpilotboy just wanted some friendly advice, not a tirade on what he shouldn't do or what I should tell him to do.

I haven't been on this forum for long but I have been around Lasers and boatshops since the beginning and I don't appreciate an angry post about some advice I never gave. I've read some of your other posts and you've obviously got a burr up your butt. You've also got some good things to say. Stick to the latter, treat evryone with respect and you'll be better off. That's my advice to you.

Oh, yeah; you don't have a kharma, you either get it or receive it for your actions. Good actions done out of love and selflessness bring on good kharma and I don't have to tell you what the converse option is.

I don't find his post to be that harsh. There is a actually a bit of truth to it. If you have a boat in that bad of shape it is never gonna be a serious contender on the race course, but with some work you can have fun with it and depending on your local fleet possibly have some decent finishes. The time and money involved/needed just to get it nearly stiff again would be better served being pointed in the direction of a newer boat. HOWEVER, you can "fix it" enough to sail it for a couple of seasons without so much effort. I agree, don't take the deck off! Put in a couple of inspection ports, (maybe 3) one offcenter of the mast step, one near the center board trunk and one on the stern deck. Then drill some 3/8" holes in the deck of the boat where the soft spots are and try not to go all the way through the deck, just into the core and remove all of the deck fittings, handrails, etc. Then get the boat in a nice, dry place, (maybe even heated?) to air out for at least 60 days. Then put some preventative glass around the mast step and fill the drilled holes with epoxy, check the hull/deck joint for delaminated areas and fix them. Check the center board trunk for leaks and fix that. Then reseal and replace all of your deck hardware, get the boat back together and go sail!
Keep in mind and save for the newer boat to buy in a couple of years.

Good luck!

 

[snipeguy]

I don't find his post to be that harsh. There is a actually a bit of truth to it. ..................

It was directed at me and that's how I felt about it.

Now here's the weird part

it is never gonna be a serious contender on the race course, but with some work you can have fun with it and depending on your local fleet possibly have some decent finishes.

and I said

Make it your club racer/farting around/practice boat.

Then drill some 3/8" holes in the deck of the boat where the soft spots are and try not to go all the way through the deck, just into the core and remove all of the deck fittings, handrails, etc. Then get the boat in a nice, dry place, (maybe even heated?) to air out for at least 60 days.

and I said

I'd drill the deck full of holes and put it up in the ceiling near the heater for the winter. In the spring I'd pump it full of cream cheese and goo (polyester and filler) and live with whatever happened.

Keep in mind and save for the newer boat to buy in a couple of years.Good luck!

and I said

Save the loonies for a decent used boat.

The time and money involved/needed just to get it nearly stiff again would be better served being pointed in the direction of a newer boat.

and I said

What you have to ask yourself is is it worth doing the work

I'm a bit confused here. Ths is all pretty much what I said to do in the first place! Maybe I'm missing something here.
Please fill me in.

 

[Rob B]

It was directed at me and that's how I felt about it.

Now here's the weird part
and I said

and I said

and I said

and I said
I'm a bit confused here. Ths is all pretty much what I said to do in the first place! Maybe I'm missing something here.
Please fill me in.

OK. So we both gave good advice. I just thought you tee'd off on governail a little much thats all. I did not see your earlier posts.

 

[vtgent49]

Hi,

I'm sure all of the advice here was well intended. The gov is a glass pro, just has a dry sense of humor.

But I'd agree with him. If the entire deck is soft, it's not worth it. I presume this happened storing it upside down, wet, and exposed to freezing.

The deck is attached at the gunnels, which may seem loose, but also at the mast step, centerboard trunk, under the cockpit, bailer. If the failure was from storing deck down, these joints will be still strong, and quite hard to break. Again, I'd reach in with a digi cam, shoot pics all over, to get some idea.

These days, most of the value in the old soft boats is in the parts. If the aluminum is not too corroded, etc, they can be restored, used and/or sold.

I'd consider weighing the hull as another test. 130-135 is good for an old hull, with normal parts screwed on. A soggy deck can make it weigh 175, thus not recoverable as a race boat, and quite a drag as a beach boat. I've seen a '84 weigh 175.

Back to the original question, I've scraped WEST off of the gelcoat, even after 10 years. Usually it's there from a sloppy patch, or gunnel seal job. Just a paint scraper knife, and it jumps off.

I own two great '74's, plus my new boat, so I'm not at all prejudiced against older hulls, although there are a few years in between that I'd avoid.

I'd consider a nice dry stiff (non-repaired) older hull to be worth 500. max. The kind of $ the Fred referred to, and I'd sell one for that to prove it. But you can use that as a reference to see if it's worth the effort.

Al Russell 182797 et al.

 

[peterpilotboy]

To all,

Thanks for the conversation. I have found good advice in each posting. I realize that there is other information online and some older posts on this forum about deck repair, but I feel like I have a better grasp on how to proceed from here.

I'll plan on taking a look at my laser pretty soon; it's a few hours away at my in-laws', and I won't make it there for another week. I'll probably heed the advice to dry the boat out, find and fix any leaks, and do the tried -and-true drill-and-fill repair. Now that I know all of the hull/deck attachment points, I'm not going to even attempt detaching them. This definitely won't be a racing boat, but it is my first laser. I bought it from a relative for $200, and it came with a trailer, so I feel like I got a pretty good deal. At any rate, this should be a good learner.

Al, I might take you up on your offer next year.

 

[gouvernail]

One trouble with email is you do not have the opportunity to watch the expression of the person who is reading it.

Another is neither person can interrupt and correct or seek midstream explanation.

Mis interpretation is rampant and so often becomes much more of a problem than it should.

My intention was and almost always is to be entertaining while attempting to communicate exactly what I think somebody might want / need to know.

Note. I used Kharma because I am not sure how to spell konshunzh. I thought I could express my thought without grabbing a dictionary.

I apologize for assuming people might want to read one more post re-affirming the futility of an attempt to refurbish that which cannot be refurbished.

Oh well. Sometimes you lose one. Other times nobody notices.

 

[snipeguy]

I apologize for assuming people might want to read one more post re-affirming the futility of an attempt to refurbish that which cannot be refurbished.

No problemo. I guess we need a "crusty but lovable smart-ass" emoticon for you to use. Next time I'll know.

 

[computeroman2]

That was as close to a typical sailing anarchy post as i've ever seen on laserforum. Except that there are alot less big words and alot more @%^$ *#@# &$@!!!!

 

[snipeguy]

That was as close to a typical sailing anarchy post as i've ever seen on laserforum. Except that there are alot less big words and alot more @%^$ *#@# &$@!!!!

Not unlike a crowded leeward mark on a blustery day. Great fun if you have the stomach for it.

 

[Merrily]

That was as close to a typical sailing anarchy post as i've ever seen on laserforum. Except that there are alot less big words and alot more @%^$ *#@# &$@!!!!

You are very observant, Grasshopper. Gouvernail has shared with us that he is Keeldude on Sailing Anarchy.

Merrily

 

[Rob B]

Now, now folks. We all know this place is much more tame and thankfully so. If this were SA there would have been about half a dozen contributers that know nothing about lasers, and half of those would have been nothing but insults and then the poster that got called out would have never apologized, but continued to turn the flames up harder and higher. SA has its purpose and I go there often, but if I want to talk about lasers or have good OD class specific info I go to those class specific sites like our awsome forum here.

RobbieB