Class Politics why so strict?

I knew I recognized that attitude somewhere.. :) You are forgiven. Lets work on the JC strap, then we can talk about rigging upgrades. :) Slow changes is what makes this the Laser fleet. It is what it is, and it isn't going to change. It is why the fleet is so strong, I can lose just as bad in my wet 82 hull as I can in a dry 06 hull.
 
Exactly, I do believe this should be taken one change at a time, and the JC strap should be the first, and in the slow process with the others, we can hopefully come to a comprise with them, and still keep the integrity of the fleet intact, which I dont think should be too big a problem, just keep it nice and steady
 
The Laser by definition is a one-design boat. One Design as in, just one... only one... no differences... one-design therefore all the same. Recently I've seen debates about different sail materials, manufacturers, carbon masts, harken blocks and who knows whatever else...

I've never had a problem with running in light airs with the boom out, I have no need for a JC strap or whatever else you want to call it. Would I vote against it... sure... it's an advantage to other sailors who do need it.

As for all this other carbon-shmarbon mast stuff... the laser is not the class for that, if you want a super purchase vang system or a super expensive bendy carbon top section, sail something else, if you want to spend most of your time tinkering with your boat, buy an IOM or something...

I love Lasers, I love the fact I can leave it parked up in my driveway and sail it when I feel like it without fear that the class has moved along without me. I can turn up to a regatta, rig it, race it and if it's blowing hard enough, do pretty well...

If you want to play with your boat while you're not sailing it, I suggest you either buy an IOM or an International Moth.

Then again, if we are submitting some rule changes... can we make the boat a little longer, add a chine here or there to the hull.... maybe make the mast a little longer, add some longer battens... maybe... just maybe, add a huge ass spinnaker to it and a trapeze wire too.... then we can have one design laser racing against something like this.....

musto_skiff.jpg
 
The Laser by definition is a one-design boat. One Design as in, just one... only one... no differences... one-design therefore all the same. Recently I've seen debates about different sail materials, manufacturers, carbon masts, harken blocks and who knows whatever else...

I've never had a problem with running in light airs
...

(I was not going to "quote" it all)

I tend to agree. I'm not against any change ever but it is a one design and as such not the boat for people who love to tinker with all sorts of add-ons. I cannot say I'm against a JC thing specifically. Probably would not use one as I like the idea of being able to rig quickly and relatively simply and the more bits of string, the longer it takes to untangle and prepare them, rig them, etc..

If it does not make you go faster why bother, if it does make you go faster then is is a good idea for a one design. If it is performance neutral, does it just makes one's life on the water "easier", if so there are loads of things that could make "life easier". Does it "lower the cost of ownership". Will it draw more people into the class ?

Lots of talk about the JC Strap going on but it all seems to be "Sounds cool" or "Lasers are one designs". What are the actual benefits for such a device for a Laser and do these benefits warrant a change to a one design class ?

Ian
 
dear God are you really gonna make me type up the benefits of the JC Strap again?
 
Ross...

What are the benefits to the class as a whole, not just to the individual sailor? Sure it makes it easier for some people to head downwind (I never thought it was that complicated myself) but what does the addition of a JC strap add to the Laser Class.

Will it encourage more people to switch to the Laser Class? That is primarily what will govern a change in rules. The rigging changes made the class more attractive to a greater audience; hence their approval.

It needs to be looked at from a class perspective rather than an individual one.
 
well i know that in light air races, i always hate going down wind, because its such a pain in the ass keeping the boom out, especially when its lumpy, and i know alot of people share this view with me, now with the JC Strap, this would be made easier, which would equal lots of happy sailors in light air, which is a better time, instead od lots of unhappy people in light air bitching and moaning about how the conditions suck at the end of the day, they are actually happy

happy people, happy time, happy class, happiness all around

and when other people see happy people in not so happy situations, they say hey, i want to be with those happy people instead of being on this lead mine! so you get class growth

happy people all around!
 
It will take a lot more than a JC Strap to make people happy sailing downwind in light lumpy conditions....

I imagine the guy who does manage to get out in front using his good technique from a lot of practice in those conditions is not so unhappy about it?

Sailing in light weather is never going to be incredibly thrilling, it's more the racing and competition that make people enjoy it, I don't see the addition of a JC strap inviting that many other sailors to make the switch....

I'm going to shut up about the JC strap now... I've said it enough, I don't see the need for it and will vote against it should i ever get the opportunity. Just don't get me started on carbon masts, new sails or anything else....
 
I mean honestly guys, how can you be so negative about something you have never sailed with?? I just dont understand that, its almost like being 20 years old, and having never had a steak, and screaming and shouting like a little child I DON'T LIKE STEAK!! NO!! I WON'T EAT IT!!!

its cheap and easy, go out and try it, and tell me what you think, if you vehemently hate it, we'll talk some more

Lets try to have open minds here, after all a good part of us are Americans...

Ty Webb:This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia.
-Caddyshack
 
OK... I lied... I have to say something to that....

Ross, I've tried it, I've sailed a finn and also tried on another boat sailed in the UK which you don't have over here. I've also sailed Skiffs, RS 600s, too many classes to mention, and I come back to Lasers because I love them.

I love the closeness of the racing, I love the simplicity of the boat, I love the fact that it's like athletic chess on the water because the boats are so simple and identical and the better sailor ALWAYS wins. When I lose, it's not because my boat or my gear suck, it's because I do. When I win, then yes it's because I'm better than the other guy (or girl)

If you can't figure out a way to keep the boom out in light lumpy conditions, maybe you need to get some race coaching rather than trying to add a bit of string to make up for your lack of skill in this department.
 
dont get me wrong, i fully can do it, and ive had some of the best coaching available in the US, but i just dont find anything wrong with the JC Strap, Finns, OKs, Europes, Naples Sabots all use em, should they go back and get coaching? I sure as hell wouldent say that to a Finn sailor

i know i know, if you love finns so much, go sail em

all the boats i just mentioned are this: "I love the closeness of the racing, I love the simplicity of the boat, I love the fact that it's like athletic chess on the water because the boats are so simple and identical and the better sailor ALWAYS wins. When I lose, it's not because my boat or my gear suck, it's because I do. When I win, then yes it's because I'm better than the other guy (or girl)"

they have just been around a bit longer, and have experienced their growning pains, and the pains have come to be accepted
 
they have just been around a bit longer, and have experienced their growning pains, and the pains have come to be accepted

They've been around longer yet cannot boast about nearly 200,000 boats worldwide, several hundred boats turning up for national championships etc etc.

Why should we try to emulate classes that are less successful than our own? The Laser is so strong because of the very few changes that have happened in our history. All those changes have been caused by a significant benefit to the class as a whole either driven by reliability, lowering the cost of ownership or enabling more sailors of varying shapes & sizes to compete at the same level. I see no reason to change this policy.
 
"I mean honestly guys, how can you be so negative about something you have never sailed with?? "

Ok, Ross, we love your enthusasim for the JC, and I am very interested to try it out when the ice goes out around here. We get plenty of light and lumpy, on a lake, often in the evening. But, admittedly it's nothing like left over Pacific sweels. I already have a ultra light, floating main sheet, an autoratchet, and other legal things to reduce the times I have to push the boom. Frankly, a wet Rooster sheet will hurt you more than a JC will help, I believe.

So, please go sail with it, hooked to wherever various places, using both 3/16 and 1/4". Send us pics and a report. I'd like to know if it's something I'd use all the time, or just under 5 kts, or whatever. Send pics (or it didn't happen?)

I love Balboa YC by the way, as you can imagine as our beach is solid ice for another couple of weeks, and 9" of snow last night. I'll be skiing this weekend.

There are no Sabots around here, and one Finn. So, your analogy doesn't quite work on the right coast. Opti's don't use them, the only class even close to lasers around here, in numbers or activity.

So, don't accuse us of being negative (which we may be), unless you've tried it enough in all conditions to explain why you are so positive?

Al
 
ok, next time i have the boat out, ill rig it up and take pics

and you have to stop comparing the fact that there are 200,000 boats is becasue the first thing people think of is how strict the rules are, in NA, the reason most kids get into it is because it the next up boat out of optis/sabots w/e, and its the dominant boat to sail, and its CHEAP, thats why people sail lasers, because they are everywhere, they are under 6 grand, and the level of competition to price is very good
 
"I mean honestly guys, how can you be so negative about something you have never sailed with?? "

Ok, Ross, we love your enthusasim for the JC, and I am very interested to try it out when the ice goes out around here. We get plenty of light and lumpy, on a lake, often in the evening. But, admittedly it's nothing like left over Pacific sweels. I already have a ultra light, floating main sheet, an autoratchet, and other legal things to reduce the times I have to push the boom. Frankly, a wet Rooster sheet will hurt you more than a JC will help, I believe.

So, don't accuse us of being negative (which we may be), unless you've tried it enough in all conditions to explain why you are so positive?

Al
I have tried it in all conditions, just happens to be on different boats lol:D

and you allready sail in perfect conditions for the JC strap, and you can go back to the Rooster mainsheet, and you would be great from light to 40, or use the 5.5, but that can be a bit thin in light air.

if you use a JC strap in light air, and wet 7mm Rooster, you would fine
 
Ross...

If the Laser is that bad, and racing without the JC strap or any other of your proposed changes is sooooo painful, just why on earth did you join the laser fleet?

You could have conducted your 2012 Olympic campaign in a Finn....?
 
The net person to tell someone to join another class or sail another boat, I will personaly hunt down and light thier hair on fire.
we all sail the same boat, telling someone to sail another class because you don't agree with them is realy childish and anoying, it is not an argument its just a realy stupid coment, also asking why someone joins/joined the laser class ??????? Does it mater(probalbly has something to do with the competition)
 
olilaser, i do know that laser sailing is dying in canada because i live in canada actualy my district dosnt even have a fleet. the only other person who i know of who sails lasers here in halifax is my buddy Evan.

To salsa, if you dont like are policys why are you sailing laser.

laser has done fine since it came out in the 70's so well it is one of the largest if not the largest sailing class in the world. this class is adopting new ways of rigging but is doing so in a way that everything is equal everone is on the same page. some of us like that others dont. sure theres still things that can be changed and its comming these rulles arent ingraved in stone they do get changed and they will be.
 
Oli...

I'm not so sure that you need to use language like that. Some, not me, might take considerable offense to that.

I'm not telling Ross to sail another class, the more laser sailors the better. But I can't see the point in joining a class and then trying to change it to be more like another class... It's illogical...
 
ok, next time i have the boat out, ill rig it up and take pics

That's the idea, better than "beating your head against the wall". I was a beta tester for the JC boom sleeve all year last summer, and my fleet didn't care, even used it at a Regional level, without a "rules" complaint. Everyone knew if was for the betterment of the class, not so that I'd have some advantage, etc. And I provided reports directly to Vanguard, and to the LF.

The Boom sleeve was probably designed by the same JC about 10+ years ago, and it does take a while to get it right, and convince a very International Class.

I agree with some on here that the Laser has "recoverd" to become a very strong class. And with others who lament it's demise. D2, just 1 hour north of us in Vermont, and which is the very home of the original factory, is particularily weak. So, we can't claim "universal success" as a one- design class, or to be proven successful. Yet.

Al Russell
182797
 
Al, I haven't heard of this before. Please tell more. Do you use a different brand of sheet? Why is a wet Rooster sheet bad?

Kind of a thread hijack, but.....

A wet Rooster is heavy. Having 30+ feet of it hanging on the boom, when at 90 degrees, and it's light and lumpy, is going to make you have to hold the boom out, to keep the sheet from dragging in the water, etc...

I have light, "floating" sheets for light air. Floating means it doesn't absorb, weigh's the same wet or dry, so good for 0-2 knots, etc.

My point was... If you haven't tried the legal fixes to the holding the boom out problem, then maybe you should. A smaller Rooster misses the point.

Al again
 
The net person to tell someone to join another class or sail another boat, I will personaly hunt down and light thier hair on fire.
we all sail the same boat, telling someone to sail another class because you don't agree with them is realy childish and anoying, it is not an argument its just a realy stupid coment, also asking why someone joins/joined the laser class ??????? Does it mater(probalbly has something to do with the competition)

thank you!

i sail lasers because its the biggest step up boat here in socal, and i do sail finns, just dont own one, i just borrow, so its awfully limited... hell, i did finn pre-trials this year, the laser is a great boat, dont get me wrong i love it, and the reason i stay is because of the sailors and hte level of competition, not the stupid rules, people dont really join a class for its rules, they join for what is raced near them, and who is racing it, and if the boat is right for them, but if you are looking for "absolutly anything goes" you look for with a fine toothed comb
 
Al, I haven't heard of this before. Please tell more. Do you use a different brand of sheet? Why is a wet Rooster sheet bad?

Kind of a thread hijack, but.....

A wet Rooster is heavy. Having 30+ feet of it hanging on the boom, when at 90 degrees, and it's light and lumpy, is going to make you have to hold the boom out, to keep the sheet from dragging in the water, etc...

I have light, "floating" sheets for light air. Floating means it doesn't absorb, weigh's the same wet or dry, so good for 0-2 knots, etc.

My point was... If you haven't tried the legal fixes to the holding the boom out problem, then maybe you should. A smaller Rooster misses the point.

Al again

how does the 5.5 rooster miss the point? the reason i got it was for light air because the 7 was too heavy when wet, does it miss the point just because it doesent float?
 
I believe his pont was it still absorbs water which weighs it down. Due to current in my area we can't sail with less than 4 knots of breeze so we really don't see this problem much at all.
 
WAIT A MINUTE
you guys are ok with jc strap (smoething that completly changes the way we sail downwind in ligh winds) but your not ok with changing the rigging purchase amount( a tiny tiny tiny bit of the way we control our sails, not even our boat) Your agruments (no change in classrules) are all invalid now, the jc strap is a much bigger change than rigging. Quit being so hippocritical
 
HAHAHAHA this is sooooo not negative, this is like kindergarten compared to Sailing Anarchy

wait no, kindergarten was alot rougher than this, we still made fun of your mom!
 
we all sail the same boat

I think that is the point people are making and want to keep.

We've heard loads about this JC Strap, and now we have a "what do you want to change" thread (like it's open season for changes).

For me, two main reasons I purchased the Laser were One Design and quick to rig. One design meaning that when I lost I was losing and not the boat. I did not buy one to tinker abut with and have loads of string (though there does seem more now than on the Laser I had 15 years ago). I found tinkering great fun many years ago in a Fireball - but not something I want to do now and hence going for a one design.

The more I hear about this JC Strap the more I am against it. Seems something with really minimal impact and thus personally I cannot see the point is stretching the one design idea for it. I am now glad that getting changes made is such hard work. When the JC Strap thing started I was pretty neutral; probably not use it myself but happy to race against others who had one. Now I will definitely vote against. So you have a convert from neutral to against.

I think the comments people are making about people not liking one designs maybe changing classes are pointing out that the Laser is a one design and addresses sailing for people who want that. If you was to try new stuff, add remove, modify bits there are loads of other more open classes that provide that so maybe the people concerned would enjoy other classes more rather than challenging one designs.

Ian
 
the reason i did the "what do you want to change" thread is because ive been doing all the talking, and i wanted to know what the people of the class had to say, those that arent afraid to speak that is
 
the reason i did the "what do you want to change" thread is because ive been doing all the talking, and i wanted to know what the people of the class had to say, those that arent afraid to speak that is
Afraid to speak? I think you will find that most people are more than happy to speak up when they have reason to. Have you considered that the reason why you are doing most of the talking might be that most people are pretty happy with the boat the way it is? And believe it or not, that is a perfectly valid opinion to have.
 
I'm happy w/the boat and class the way they are. I do have a wish list on the other thread, but it's just that a "wish list". I'm not gonna make a stink over it. My big beef is the sail, but we all have to deal wth it for now. Whatever the case I like the class being "strict" on our OD rules. It minimizes the "arms race". Salsa is a young buck w/lots of energy. He has been able to get some discussion going, (even if half of it is him). I'm ok w/discussion.
 
I suppose the sail price/longevity question is not one I see as part of a "One Design" issue. Maybe more commercial and accessibility. I would expect that, were a new sail maker appointed or a new material selected then the sails might be a bit cheaper and/or last a bit longer but two identical everythings one new, other old sails would be evenly matched (i.e. no speed advantage to old or new).


Ian
 
if i can get people talkin and thinkin, im doin ok

the people should have an opinion, they must, lets hear it!
 
It seems that we have a status quo between two groups:
1. the laser needs to change
2. the laser should not change
1. yes
2. no
1. yes
2. no
ad infinitum

A suggestion: make an argument in which you answer the following question:
1. Why should the rigging change? Is it not the case that we already have enough purchase in the vang, outhaul, and cunningham?
2. Why should we not be allowed to change the rigging? Could opening up the rules possibly give an advantages? Could a smaller, or bigger block somewhere in the rigging change the tuning-possibilities?
G
 

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