why so strict?

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Ross B

Guest
#21
the clock's still ticking! I've not adopted it, nor do I intend to until I see it makes a clear performance differential. To date I haven't seen it make people any faster, sure, it makes life easier for some smaller sailors but when I used it, I decided it was over-rated given how much it costs...
exactly what im talkin about! along with the changes i propose, it doesent make the boat any faster (except the mast and sail changes, but those are a different story..) it just makes the boat more enjoyable, and you dont have to use em! but you have to ask yourself, if you can possibly see youself using them, why vote no? its probably good for the class! i cant recall any of the changes that have been made have been dramatically bad, but then again i dont have 30 years of laser sailing under my belt, just 7
 
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Ross B

Guest
#23
in the 70s! before the laser got big, the Finn was the class to sail! and the laser destroyed that

the Finn has now come back, thanks in part to the guys at NHYC, and is seeing very healthy growth compared to what it was in the last 10, 15 years

there is no way in hell any class will ever be able to get the size the laser has, its very hard, so you can really compare

its doing very well
 
#24
I dont think ur gettin this part salsa, if we let rigging go compies will make parts and advertise that thiers is so much better when there not, screwin over sailors. or someone will develope somthin that could lead to an unfair advantage. us who sail in this class like the rules the way they are.

so pls "dont try and change us"
 
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OliLaser

Guest
Thread starter #25
why is the laser so strict about rigging? why should it matter it a guy has a 40:1 purchase on his vang, or where he gets his blocks from?

Why cant the hull, spars, and sail, and blades be the only controlled factor?

we should be able to rig any way we want, you cant generate a speed advantage because of your downhaul, or outhaul, or mainsheet!

whats the big deal?

Finns, Naples Sabots, 2.4 meters, Santana 20's, tones of boats have controlled hulls, spars, blades and such, but are free reign on rigging, and they seem to be doing great!

I agree fully htere is no big deal if someone wants to rig it a certain way they should be allowed its fooolish it makes no difference what so ever
 
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OliLaser

Guest
Thread starter #26
I dont think ur gettin this part salsa, if we let rigging go compies will make parts and advertise that thiers is so much better when there not, screwin over sailors. or someone will develope somthin that could lead to an unfair advantage. us who sail in this class like the rules the way they are.

so pls "dont try and change us"

One other comment Pls sont try and change us is a very ignorant comment and makes me mad
First off us would mean everyone( i dont agree) and also without change or adaption you get extinction or a decrese in #'s
Laser sailing in Canada is on a decline
Ever raced a 4 boat regatta?
 
#27
I agree fully htere is no big deal if someone wants to rig it a certain way they should be allowed its fooolish it makes no difference what so ever
If it makes no difference whatsoever, why change it?

Opening up the rules like this would encourage people to fiddle endlessly with their setup looking for a better way. That's what development classes are for. The Laser is about one design fleet racing and does that job well. The class isn't against change, but it believes in cautiously controlled change where there are obvious benefits. Believe it or not, the system works.

Like I said in one of the other 73 threads on this topic that have appeared this week, the boat might not be perfect but that isn't the point. It's about the fleet, not the boat.
 
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Ross B

Guest
#28
Oli Laser, you are a god!

and I agree with you

people fiddle with their rigging all the time trying to find what works for them, and if it wont make you any faster, why should there be rules about it?

onetwoMeny, it is impossible to gain an advantage with rigging, if its not your sails, hull, spars, or blades, it wont make you faster, end of story
 
#29
Just because it does not have a direct impact on speed does not mean it does not give you an advantage. The JC strap is certainly an advantage. Top of the line rigging is certainly an advantage. If it wasn't, no one would want it. I am not saying it is a bad thing, but the argument of "it won't make you any faster" is misleading. I higher purchase, means I spend less energy, giving me an advantage over a lower purchase system, thus allowing me to concentrate better on tactics, making me faster. Big picture...
 
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Ross B

Guest
#30
yes, but to a stronger person, they can use a 4:1 and have less line to deal with, instead of the 8:1 downhaul and have twice as much line, i going to switch to the 4:1 next time cuz im tired deal with the double.

i believe at the end of the day, Robert Schiedt, or anyone for that matter, will be faster with a new sail, than with new rigging, i know I dident notice a speed difference

with the JC strap, i just want to make life easier to everyone, other classes have realized how great it is, and i think it is about time we do too
 
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OliLaser

Guest
Thread starter #31
Just because it does not have a direct impact on speed does not mean it does not give you an advantage. The JC strap is certainly an advantage. Top of the line rigging is certainly an advantage. If it wasn't, no one would want it. I am not saying it is a bad thing, but the argument of "it won't make you any faster" is misleading. I higher purchase, means I spend less energy, giving me an advantage over a lower purchase system, thus allowing me to concentrate better on tactics, making me faster. Big picture...

I am assuming you are a strong person. And that what you are saying is that physical fitness is important in the laser class.
Pulling on ropes does not tire you to a point were you concentrate less on tactics, hiking does, but adjusting your controls doesn't and if it did wouldn't that be an incentieve to add purchases to the system. Not everyone who sails the boat is strong, or fit
 
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Ross B

Guest
#32
yes, if trimming your downhaul or outhaul tires you to the point of exhaustion, maybe you should sail keel boats, and do tactics
 
#33
The new rigging has had a massive impact on speed. Changing gears downwind used to be very difficult, but now we can adjust the outhaul at will. The vang is also much easier to adjust downwind than it used to be, but not to the same extent as the outhaul. Everyone is sailing a lot faster downwind than they were ten years ago, largely because of this.
 
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Ross B

Guest
#34
and thats exactly by anslie and schiedt used it so much and praised it! because it made them as fast as they are today! lol
 
#35
yes, if trimming your downhaul or outhaul tires you to the point of exhaustion, maybe you should sail keel boats, and do tactics

and if you want to sail on a boat that is not so restricted you should go sail on a Finn...

dismissing someones opinion like that is not what this class is about. It is about equal boats. You cannot say the rigging has nothing to do with speed. It is a fact. If it had nothing to do with speed, why do you want it so bad? It makes things easier, thus allowing you more speed...

and I do also sail on keel boats. :)
 
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Ross B

Guest
#36
then go back to your leadmines you goober!!

im sorry, this is just so much easier on sailing anarchy... please forgive me
 
#37
I knew I recognized that attitude somewhere.. :) You are forgiven. Lets work on the JC strap, then we can talk about rigging upgrades. :) Slow changes is what makes this the Laser fleet. It is what it is, and it isn't going to change. It is why the fleet is so strong, I can lose just as bad in my wet 82 hull as I can in a dry 06 hull.
 
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Ross B

Guest
#38
Exactly, I do believe this should be taken one change at a time, and the JC strap should be the first, and in the slow process with the others, we can hopefully come to a comprise with them, and still keep the integrity of the fleet intact, which I dont think should be too big a problem, just keep it nice and steady
 
#39
The Laser by definition is a one-design boat. One Design as in, just one... only one... no differences... one-design therefore all the same. Recently I've seen debates about different sail materials, manufacturers, carbon masts, harken blocks and who knows whatever else...

I've never had a problem with running in light airs with the boom out, I have no need for a JC strap or whatever else you want to call it. Would I vote against it... sure... it's an advantage to other sailors who do need it.

As for all this other carbon-shmarbon mast stuff... the laser is not the class for that, if you want a super purchase vang system or a super expensive bendy carbon top section, sail something else, if you want to spend most of your time tinkering with your boat, buy an IOM or something...

I love Lasers, I love the fact I can leave it parked up in my driveway and sail it when I feel like it without fear that the class has moved along without me. I can turn up to a regatta, rig it, race it and if it's blowing hard enough, do pretty well...

If you want to play with your boat while you're not sailing it, I suggest you either buy an IOM or an International Moth.

Then again, if we are submitting some rule changes... can we make the boat a little longer, add a chine here or there to the hull.... maybe make the mast a little longer, add some longer battens... maybe... just maybe, add a huge ass spinnaker to it and a trapeze wire too.... then we can have one design laser racing against something like this.....

 
#40
The Laser by definition is a one-design boat. One Design as in, just one... only one... no differences... one-design therefore all the same. Recently I've seen debates about different sail materials, manufacturers, carbon masts, harken blocks and who knows whatever else...

I've never had a problem with running in light airs
...
(I was not going to "quote" it all)

I tend to agree. I'm not against any change ever but it is a one design and as such not the boat for people who love to tinker with all sorts of add-ons. I cannot say I'm against a JC thing specifically. Probably would not use one as I like the idea of being able to rig quickly and relatively simply and the more bits of string, the longer it takes to untangle and prepare them, rig them, etc..

If it does not make you go faster why bother, if it does make you go faster then is is a good idea for a one design. If it is performance neutral, does it just makes one's life on the water "easier", if so there are loads of things that could make "life easier". Does it "lower the cost of ownership". Will it draw more people into the class ?

Lots of talk about the JC Strap going on but it all seems to be "Sounds cool" or "Lasers are one designs". What are the actual benefits for such a device for a Laser and do these benefits warrant a change to a one design class ?

Ian
 
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