What's the top build years for Lasers?
- Thread starter K_oner
- Start date
matt182763
pwner of n00bs
avoid 2008 vanguards, the hull is off center with the deck, creating a off-center daggerboard slot, changing the water flow. this will make roll tacks off balenced. also, they fill up with ALOT of water
gouvernail
Super Opinionated and Always Correct
I have personal issues with some vanguard folks but even so, I am compelled to stand up for the accused until proven negligent.....
One boat or many. What did your dealer do about these problems? Did you tell the builder? Did they provide a replacement hull for the leaker(s)?
One boat or many. What did your dealer do about these problems? Did you tell the builder? Did they provide a replacement hull for the leaker(s)?
mjbhawg
Member
I thought I heard during the years Pearson Yachts had em there were some shoddy
boats correct me if I am wrong.
boats correct me if I am wrong.
mlemieux1978
New Member
Seems to be a difficult question to answer. After all, I could say 1973 boats were superfast but they aren't anymore. As for myself, I also take exception to pearson yachts boats, as well as having more than a few quality control issues with vanguard products in the past (in different classes). I got really lucky when I bought my current boat, a 1992 performance sailcraft of G.B. No leaks, no inspection port. Keeps right up with the '07s and '08s at my club. Of course, we are a bunch of hacks. I think you would get your best result by following the guide posted in the for sale forum
Bungo Pete
Member
I only have experience working on a 1979 and a 1980 "ZFS" boat. Therefore, I cannot speak to the relative quality (or lack thereof) when compared to newer models. I can say that boats of this vintage originally had awful plastic thru-hull bushings, which broke and eventually resulted in cockpit-to-hull separation. Everything else seems to be very good.
In general, I think that regardless of the age, adhering the cockpit to the inner hull with three dog poop size piles of bondo in an inaccessable place is pretty stupid. Also, regardless of what others think, I would definately put an inspection port, or two in the boat. This will keep the inside of the hull dry when not in use. When I did the surgery, the above mentioned bondo was like a wet kitchen sponge.
In general, I think that regardless of the age, adhering the cockpit to the inner hull with three dog poop size piles of bondo in an inaccessable place is pretty stupid. Also, regardless of what others think, I would definately put an inspection port, or two in the boat. This will keep the inside of the hull dry when not in use. When I did the surgery, the above mentioned bondo was like a wet kitchen sponge.
LQT420
Member
I don't think Pearson ever built Lasers. I know that from '89-'92 or so, they built the Sunfish. Sunfish boats built during that era were very well known for their poor build quality.
At the end of the day, our beloved Laser is a disposable boat with a finite competitive shelf life. With all the new technology and innovation in boat building methods, wouldn't it be great if the class can look into new build techniques? Not to improve performance, but to improve the durability and competitive longevity of the Laser hull. But then again, it's hard to see any builder agreeing to pour money into something that will ultimately lead to lower sales for them. They have no incentive to kill their "Golden Goose."
Until that ever happens, we're just gonna have to work with what we have. I love my Laser, but as human nature dictates, I love to bitch about her too... Rant over.
At the end of the day, our beloved Laser is a disposable boat with a finite competitive shelf life. With all the new technology and innovation in boat building methods, wouldn't it be great if the class can look into new build techniques? Not to improve performance, but to improve the durability and competitive longevity of the Laser hull. But then again, it's hard to see any builder agreeing to pour money into something that will ultimately lead to lower sales for them. They have no incentive to kill their "Golden Goose."
Until that ever happens, we're just gonna have to work with what we have. I love my Laser, but as human nature dictates, I love to bitch about her too... Rant over.
49208
Tentmaker
Yes, as stated before Pearson was building them, same time they were building 'fish 89-91 IIRC builder id on the hull number is PSB
And the general opinion of PSB Lasers is that there were as of poor quality as the PSB 'fish
LQT420
Member
I did not know that... I stand corrected!
Bungo Pete
Member
Leon:
I would have to take issue with your assertion that the Laser is a "disposable" boat. This may be true in the highest echelons of the sport, but it is no different than what happens to all forms of racing equipment. Just look at F1, Moto GP, Superbike, NASCAR, etc. and consider how many cars and components they go through not just in a season, but in just one race. And the next season, everything is new. I know this first-hand as my company makes parts for some of the the above mentioned teams.
I have seen a lot of older boats our there being raced and enjoyed by people, and perhaps they are not all super competitive; but isn't Laser sailing about the skill of the sailor and not how new or high-zoot his boat is?
To be fair, I think the only reason why they could be considered disposable is there are so many of them. By having a huge population, it means that if you find your hull requires too much of an elaborate repair, such as deck delamination, then it is a viable alternative to 86 it and get another previously enjoyed one.
Just my 2¢
I would have to take issue with your assertion that the Laser is a "disposable" boat. This may be true in the highest echelons of the sport, but it is no different than what happens to all forms of racing equipment. Just look at F1, Moto GP, Superbike, NASCAR, etc. and consider how many cars and components they go through not just in a season, but in just one race. And the next season, everything is new. I know this first-hand as my company makes parts for some of the the above mentioned teams.
I have seen a lot of older boats our there being raced and enjoyed by people, and perhaps they are not all super competitive; but isn't Laser sailing about the skill of the sailor and not how new or high-zoot his boat is?
To be fair, I think the only reason why they could be considered disposable is there are so many of them. By having a huge population, it means that if you find your hull requires too much of an elaborate repair, such as deck delamination, then it is a viable alternative to 86 it and get another previously enjoyed one.
Just my 2¢
sidewinder
Member
I seem to remember reading on this board that SLI, who built after pearson, first developed a jig to make mast rakes more consistent.
But some say their boats were crappy. I have one, but I'm no rockstar.
But some say their boats were crappy. I have one, but I'm no rockstar.
mlemieux1978
New Member
Thats true about SLI. One of the reasons why Pearson smallboats went under was that they had a run of boats that were out of spec in terms of rake. My best friend growing up had a boat that was purchased at the bankruptcy sale. He got protested at few junior olympic events for having a non class approved boat. I don't think it was fast or anything.
gouvernail
Super Opinionated and Always Correct
1. Disposable boats:
Lasers could be built so they would be stiffer, stronger, stay stiff for many more years, be lighter than they are now and cost less to produce. The problem is the one design specifications prevent that from happening. If boats as desribed in the first sentence were built, no other laser would be conpetitive with the new ones.
On the other hand, the guys at the top of the fleet already buy new boats regularly as lasers do not stay stiff and fast for multiple seasons of hard use.
No, your 1978 or 1973 or 1980 or 1995 boat is not better than todays boats and if it has been sailed hard in big waves, It is NOT competitive anymore vs stiff new boats. It isn't ! Forget trying to kid yourself. The old boats simply wear out.
Resins are better today than in 1974. The boats are better. No contest.
Tires are better.
Sound systems are better.
Milk cartipons are thinner and less likely to bust anyway.
Plastics technology has been steadily improving for the last 40 years.
if lasers were built from laminated wood they would rot, but they would not "wear out" like the current boats....Thye would take tehe repititions of stress with damn near zero loss of stiffness. Thistle number 1 is still fast. But wood lasers would be VERY expensive.
if lasers were built with molding machines and high tech materials, they could be made stiffer, stronger and would hold up to many times the repititions of stress the current single laminate hulls will withstand.
2. Historical good and bad building periods:
it does not matter. Unless the boat has been stored in a teperatrure controlled ( cool) environment, any old laser will be too cured to flex very many times without severe loss of stiffness. If an old boat is still stiff and strong and you feel it all over and believe that to be true...and the deal is right...Buy it. Use it.. Enjoy it. Then when you think it is old and slow, get another boat.
3. Current boats and their quality. I have found Lasers to be built beter and better and better in ANY factory where the same employees stay on the job year after year after year. Unlesss the vanguard employees left when the English folks bought the factory, I must believe the new Rhode Island boats are as good or better than any lasers ever built in North America.
4. Rumor has it the hulls from "down under" are better than the boats made in the northern hemisphere. Six years ago I did some flex testing on a couple Aussie hulls and I believe "at that time" the Aussie boats were better than the vanguard boats....but not by a hell of a lot.
After doing all the checking I could, I felt fully confident I was going full speed in a new boat from the NA manufacturer.
I do believe, a two year old Aussie boat ( as tested by me) was stiffer than a similarly used US Boat ( tested by me) when I checked a couple years later. But
Both hulls were softer than the then new US boats...so once again...I didn't really give a damn.
get a boat that feels good and sail it.
Don't be an ass and go around flexing people's boats to see how stiff the hulls seem. You will hurt the boats flexing them to see and you have no right to mess up other people's boats.
Oh yes...I can go around flexing boats to see if they are stiff without hurting them as I know my stuff well enough to do that...40 years burying one's self in the small boat business educates a fellow about a few things....BUT I still ask first!!!!
summary:
quit worrying about it.
Just get a boat and go sail
Lasers could be built so they would be stiffer, stronger, stay stiff for many more years, be lighter than they are now and cost less to produce. The problem is the one design specifications prevent that from happening. If boats as desribed in the first sentence were built, no other laser would be conpetitive with the new ones.
On the other hand, the guys at the top of the fleet already buy new boats regularly as lasers do not stay stiff and fast for multiple seasons of hard use.
No, your 1978 or 1973 or 1980 or 1995 boat is not better than todays boats and if it has been sailed hard in big waves, It is NOT competitive anymore vs stiff new boats. It isn't ! Forget trying to kid yourself. The old boats simply wear out.
Resins are better today than in 1974. The boats are better. No contest.
Tires are better.
Sound systems are better.
Milk cartipons are thinner and less likely to bust anyway.
Plastics technology has been steadily improving for the last 40 years.
if lasers were built from laminated wood they would rot, but they would not "wear out" like the current boats....Thye would take tehe repititions of stress with damn near zero loss of stiffness. Thistle number 1 is still fast. But wood lasers would be VERY expensive.
if lasers were built with molding machines and high tech materials, they could be made stiffer, stronger and would hold up to many times the repititions of stress the current single laminate hulls will withstand.
2. Historical good and bad building periods:
it does not matter. Unless the boat has been stored in a teperatrure controlled ( cool) environment, any old laser will be too cured to flex very many times without severe loss of stiffness. If an old boat is still stiff and strong and you feel it all over and believe that to be true...and the deal is right...Buy it. Use it.. Enjoy it. Then when you think it is old and slow, get another boat.
3. Current boats and their quality. I have found Lasers to be built beter and better and better in ANY factory where the same employees stay on the job year after year after year. Unlesss the vanguard employees left when the English folks bought the factory, I must believe the new Rhode Island boats are as good or better than any lasers ever built in North America.
4. Rumor has it the hulls from "down under" are better than the boats made in the northern hemisphere. Six years ago I did some flex testing on a couple Aussie hulls and I believe "at that time" the Aussie boats were better than the vanguard boats....but not by a hell of a lot.
After doing all the checking I could, I felt fully confident I was going full speed in a new boat from the NA manufacturer.
I do believe, a two year old Aussie boat ( as tested by me) was stiffer than a similarly used US Boat ( tested by me) when I checked a couple years later. But
Both hulls were softer than the then new US boats...so once again...I didn't really give a damn.
get a boat that feels good and sail it.
Don't be an ass and go around flexing people's boats to see how stiff the hulls seem. You will hurt the boats flexing them to see and you have no right to mess up other people's boats.
Oh yes...I can go around flexing boats to see if they are stiff without hurting them as I know my stuff well enough to do that...40 years burying one's self in the small boat business educates a fellow about a few things....BUT I still ask first!!!!
summary:
quit worrying about it.
Just get a boat and go sail
LQT420
Member
Hi Bungo Pete,
I've sailed used soft boats all my life. In fact I just got a new to me Laser last year... a '96. I am by no means a rockstar sailor that needs a new boat every three years. All I'm saying is that after almost 40 years of our beloved Lasers, wouldn't it be nice to have a sturdier mast step? or a stiffer deck to support my rotund ass?
Remember, the class touts that all the changes over the years have been made to support the ease of use or durability of our boat. From the evolution of our grabrails, blades, gudgeons, performance upgrades, and different sail eras to the one currently being tested, wouldn't it be nice for our hulls to evolve (in terms of durability) as well?
Like I said, I'll never need a brand new boat based on performance issues... I'm purely a recreational sailor. However, I do strongly feel, that the continued innovation and evolution of the guts of our boat in my opinion, is a good thing.
- Leon
I've sailed used soft boats all my life. In fact I just got a new to me Laser last year... a '96. I am by no means a rockstar sailor that needs a new boat every three years. All I'm saying is that after almost 40 years of our beloved Lasers, wouldn't it be nice to have a sturdier mast step? or a stiffer deck to support my rotund ass?
Remember, the class touts that all the changes over the years have been made to support the ease of use or durability of our boat. From the evolution of our grabrails, blades, gudgeons, performance upgrades, and different sail eras to the one currently being tested, wouldn't it be nice for our hulls to evolve (in terms of durability) as well?
Like I said, I'll never need a brand new boat based on performance issues... I'm purely a recreational sailor. However, I do strongly feel, that the continued innovation and evolution of the guts of our boat in my opinion, is a good thing.
- Leon
mlemieux1978
New Member
This thread is getting dangerously close to the old "why are we paying so much for inferior products!?!?!" Like Gouv. said, new is better. Thats as it should be. We all want better, cheaper boats and sails, but its just not gonna happen. Buy as fancy a boat as you can afford and/or need. When you lose a race to someone with brand new stuff, shake your fist skyward and cuss at Vanguard. Then hike harder next race. Buy cheaper beer to save for a new sail. While my own feeling on hull construction are the same as anybody's, I'll continue to sail used boats and perpetuate the system. Maybe we'll get some better quality control from Performance Sailcraft. I'm sure they could build a laser better, but It seems a waste of breathe to complain.
Thanks guys for all you comments.
To summarize what I have seen here and other places:
Avoid PSB (Pearson Sail Boats) 89-91due to quality issues and mast rake problems.
Avoid SLI (Sunfish Lasers) 91-94 due to quality issues especially with deck delamination)
There is no magic Bullit run of outstanding boats.
Newer is generally incrementally better just due to the inevitable aging process.
Pay carefull attention to stiffness and dryness in particular.
See blog on "what to look for when buying a Laser" on this site, lots of usefull tips.
To summarize what I have seen here and other places:
Avoid PSB (Pearson Sail Boats) 89-91due to quality issues and mast rake problems.
Avoid SLI (Sunfish Lasers) 91-94 due to quality issues especially with deck delamination)
There is no magic Bullit run of outstanding boats.
Newer is generally incrementally better just due to the inevitable aging process.
Pay carefull attention to stiffness and dryness in particular.
See blog on "what to look for when buying a Laser" on this site, lots of usefull tips.
sidewinder
Member
Sounds like you have the right idea.
Get whatever boat you can, then sail it a lot.
It will take a lot of hours sailing, practicing and racing before you can determine the boat is holding you back. I know I'll never reach that day.
Get whatever boat you can, then sail it a lot.
It will take a lot of hours sailing, practicing and racing before you can determine the boat is holding you back. I know I'll never reach that day.
captainJack987
New Member
I have an 81 laser in almost mint condition that was not sailied for around 4 years when i bought. It but the previous owner rarely sailed it, so tell me if i'm wrong but i'm thinking i get the impression that old boats are better then new ones?
jeffers
Active Member
Just to add my 2p (or 2c) in here.
Over here in the UK you see plenty of older boats (the 50,000 to 90,000) then you see hardly any until aorund 120,000. I am told this is because the boats in this period were not durable. I have had boats from an old 75,000 right up to a new 180,000 and whilst the 180,000 boat felt nicer to sail the best boat I had was a 150,000 hull (why I sold it I really don't know).
Now I have a 120,000 boat that has been refurbished by a respected boat builder. It feels stiff and not too heavy and it goes like stink. The only issue I have is that the rudder does not feel right. When I have some time I will play around with the stock and pintles and see if i can resolve this. I do know it does not go down as far as other boat in the boat park.
Aside from that if you get a lightly sailed older boat it will be as quick (in a club environment) as a much newer boat.
At the level we are talking here it comes down more to sailor skill than boat.
Over here in the UK you see plenty of older boats (the 50,000 to 90,000) then you see hardly any until aorund 120,000. I am told this is because the boats in this period were not durable. I have had boats from an old 75,000 right up to a new 180,000 and whilst the 180,000 boat felt nicer to sail the best boat I had was a 150,000 hull (why I sold it I really don't know).
Now I have a 120,000 boat that has been refurbished by a respected boat builder. It feels stiff and not too heavy and it goes like stink. The only issue I have is that the rudder does not feel right. When I have some time I will play around with the stock and pintles and see if i can resolve this. I do know it does not go down as far as other boat in the boat park.
Aside from that if you get a lightly sailed older boat it will be as quick (in a club environment) as a much newer boat.
At the level we are talking here it comes down more to sailor skill than boat.