What's new

Welcome to the Gamma Class!

torrid

Just sailing
My Google-fu isn't what is used to be. Best I could find for a domain name search leads to a truck stop parking lot in Boardman, OR. At least it's kind of near The Gorge.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Probably a false alarm. One would think the new name would begin with an "L" to fit "ILCA". Or a T :D

But "Gamma" wouldn't be that far-fetched: the lower-case letter is the symbol for the photon in physics, and those are what light consists of, including lasers...

At least is shows that someone in ILCA watches these forums.
This case may not be evidence for that, but there are other examples from the recent past which show that they do :rolleyes:

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Bradley

Administrator
Staff member
I tend to agree with LaLi. I would think they would use something that incorporated the L in ILCA. However, maybe they are thinking of rebranding the class worldwide to a trademark they own entirely. It's going to be odd to use 2 different names depending on which region the boat is sold in. I could see the class buying a domain quietly 'just in case' a few years ago. Its not like the fight with LP is anything new.

Gamma is cool, still a type of light. Logo could still be a beam of light in some altered but not entirely that different form.
 

Gamma Sailor

New Member
If you don’t think this new name is a done deal, try a few trademark searches.

They chose the new name years ago. They’ve been quietly getting it ready ever since.

The logo will be significantly different. Anything reminiscent of the current logo is a litigation risk.

The only issue to resolve is the Class constitution. That will need a class vote over a six month period to change.
 

Gamma Sailor

New Member
Since January Rule 31 was modified to shorten the rule voting process from six months to one month and removing “votes to be sent by post”.
E
Of course, I forgot about that. Has it been ratified by WS yet though? The constitution on the Laser website is still the old one.

Either way it will be interesting to watch the various interest groups campaign.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
try a few trademark searches.

They chose the new name years ago.
I tried. It looks like ILCA has registered "ILCA" and "ILCA Standard" in EU and US. Then there's a "Weather Helm, Inc." that has registered "ILCA" as well. They have also registered "Gamma" in the US and Jamaica; the Jamaican application was filed in June of last year, and there's no sign of "Gamma" (for sailing purposes!) before that. Go figure.

The constitution on the Laser website is still the old one.
Somebody probably just forgot to change that. The new text is in rule 31.

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gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
So many concerns:
**Who would be willing to invest the millions it takes to set up a Gamma company when there are so many unresolved liabilities related to LP’s rights??
**( Understand before reading further>>>
I was one who advocated for changing the name and cutting loose from the rights holder years ago) Where is the ILCA constitution or class rules is there power granted to its officers to abandon the Laser name or jet boats play in its games that are not produced by a builder with rights to use the name Laser?
** How long will we be without a supply of new boats? We already know LP has successfully defended its territory.
Will it really work to tell the judge:
This time we changed the name of the exact same product because we decided to throw the copyright holder out of the market. ???
** when people show up at regattas with brand new Lasers, who is going to turn them away?
I will answer that one: The Gamma Class needs to have a measurement system
Like Fireballs have. There is no reason it matters who Made the boat. All that matters is the boat sails just like the other new boats.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Who would be willing to invest the millions it takes to set up a Gamma company when there are so many unresolved liabilities related to LP’s rights?
I don't think anybody's going to set up a "Gamma company" from scratch. ILCA has already said that several existing boatbuilders are ready to add the Laser/Torch/Gamma to their range, and if they don't call the product "Laser" or use the ray insignia, LP shouldn't have anything to say to that.

Where is the ILCA constitution or class rules is there power granted to its officers to abandon the Laser name or jet boats play in its games that are not produced by a builder with rights to use the name Laser?
There is no rule about that now; that's what we will most likely vote for in the near future.

How long will we be without a supply of new boats?
Depends on how many WS stickers LP has left, and how fast the new builders get going. A wild guess would be a few months. PSA and PSJ will help a little, too, so we shouldn't have a total break at any point.

We already know LP has successfully defended its territory.
Will it really work to tell the judge:
This time we changed the name of the exact same product because we decided to throw the copyright holder out of the market.
LP doesn't hold a Laser copyright, because no one does. Even Kirby doesn't have any "design rights" (this was discussed very extensively a few years ago). The builders only have the rights to the trademarked name and logo. A non-profit organization like ILCA or WS should be free to choose to operate using products carrying those or any other trademarks.

when people show up at regattas with brand new Lasers, who is going to turn them away?
No one, if the boats have a WS sticker on them. If LP builds stickerless Lasers, then it's the judges' and measurers' job to keep them out. (And of course, other sailors can protest, too.)

The Gamma Class needs to have a measurement system
Like Fireballs have. There is no reason it matters who Made the boat.
No no no. That really works only with classes which have an option for homebuilding. The strength of the Laser is that you don't need any actual measurement... you just buy the stuff and go sailing.

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Gamma Sailor

New Member
Somebody probably just forgot to change that. The new text is in rule 31.

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Ah, that relates to changes to the class rules. Not the same thing as changes to the constitution - that still needs six months and a postal ballot. See clause 17 of the constitiution.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
that relates to changes to the class rules. Not the same thing as changes to the constitution - that still needs six months and a postal ballot.
Ok, I see the difference now. Might have changed that as well to keep them identical.

Interesting, too, that WS needs to approve class rule changes but not constitutional ones.

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gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
Please note:
the ILCA can, based upon certain agreements, certify a boat as “allowed in our game.”
I have no problem with ILCA saying, “We won’t automatically certify boats from factory X.”

I do have a problem with the ILCA saying, “We don’t know what you are building so all boats built at your facility are hereby banned.”

I prefer, “We are going to stop pre-certifying your bouts until we are satisfied your busts are built to the agreed upon specifications .”


Meanwhile: LP is responding again. The new stuff is well down the page. What a mess!!!

ILCA News
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AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
No no no. That really works only with classes which have an option for homebuilding. The strength of the Laser is that you don't need any actual measurement... you just buy the stuff and go sailing.
Equipment has always and will always leave the factory that doesn't measure in, the quantity can be reduced with QC.

I used to be really annoying to PSA, as I used to find a heap of equipment that failed to measure, straight from the factory door. Ever laser used at the Terrigal World 10 years ago had to have their hiking strap changed because of the two loop rule. A significant number of the bottom sections used at the Radial Worlds in Auckland a few weeks had their sleeves in the bottom section lowed to the correct position a few weeks later (the guy installing them found a short cut and it resulted in them not sitting down all the way). Then you had the old batten style issue that lasted for decades, where they were 2mm to long. Thankfully PSA under the current manager has been very active in making QC a major issue.
 

jCruisin

Member
I’m just a sunfish sailor but all this really interests me after the ISCA and LP got into it last year.

Why can’t LP just make the damn, supply parts, and support their classes...
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Meanwhile: LP is responding again. The new stuff is well down the page. What a mess!!!

ILCA News
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I can't really comment on whether those items are in spec or outside spec. But discussion with Chris 10 years ago suggested that at the time the ILCA had an issue with the consistency of the boats leaving PSA. For example if the tolerance was +/- 1kg, PSA could build with in 0.1kg. LP were getting upset because they needed the larger tolerance, despite PSA willingness to train the LP staff both in Australia and the UK but LP wasn't interested.

The issue is are the boats leaving the PSA factory built not following the construction manual or are outside the class specs. I suspect PSA is building within tolerance but at the optimum locations within those tolerances and this is just sour grapes from LP.
 
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