Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

R

Ross B

Guest
#81
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week unless the powers at be say otherwise
 
#83
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Here is a picture of Robert Scheidt and Bruno Prada winning the ISAF Sailing World Championship in the Star Class (scanned from "Starlights"). Not sure if this is is a Hyde or not... but I'm guessing he is using those inflatable battens...

;)
 

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R

Ross B

Guest
#84
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Tracy, you know I love you. But it just didn't seem to have the zip the second time around.
 
#85
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Here is a picture of Robert Scheidt and Bruno Prada winning the ISAF Sailing World Championship in the Star Class (scanned from "Starlights"). Not sure if this is is a Hyde or not... but I'm guessing he is using those inflatable battens...

;)
That Star sail looks like that probably because it has been de-powered by applying a lot of upper backstay. When upper backstay is applied the upper part of the mast is bent, depowering the top of the sail...and it's a Quantum sail.
 
#86
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Let's say we (they?) switch to a sail that has nearly identical performance characteristics to the current version, but costs less and lasts longer. The Intensity sail may be such a sail; we don't really know how durable it'll be nor what it would cost if it were blessed by the class, royalties paid, etc.

  • Top sailors would buy a new sail every couple of races instead of every race.
  • Serious regional sailors would buy a new sail twice a season instead of once a season.
  • Club sailors would buy a new sail once every couple of years instead of once per year.
  • Nobody's existing sail would be made worthless. Even if the new sail is faster than the old sail, it wouldn't matter: top racers are buying new sails all the time anyhow, and the rest of us in the back of the fleet don't really care: we'll race with our old rags until our personal budget permits the new sail, just as we do now.

So it seems that everybody wins. Except for the builders and the dealer network, who lose bigtime. The revenue stream from replacement sails would be cut way back. So you can't imagine that the builders and dealers, who are, as they should be, well represented in the class leadership, are going to be very enthusiastic about researching, developing, and promoting such a sail design. In fact, as rational economic agents, they'd do everything in their power to delay or prevent it.

There's not going to be a change unless either it makes economic sense for the builders, or until the builders are forced into it by market pressure.

Unfortunately, the strict one-design nature of the Laser, which is good in so many ways, does very distorting things to the market, and it's hard to apply market pressure.

It's tempting to say "well, let's start allowing 'practice' sails at as many series and regattas as we can; that'll create a little market pressure."

It might. And it might also open up an enormous can of worms. What is a legitimate 'practice' sail? Intensity? Custom sails? 3DL G-string sails of pure unobtainum fiber?

If this is going to be tinkered with at the grass roots level, it needs to be done carefully and thoughtfully.
 
#88
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I have been lurking in the background of this site reading all the useful information, its great thank you.
I am fairly new Lasers (raced Flying 11s as a kid) and I am in Sydney, Australia, and as you will probalby know the standards and master will be held up at Terrigal in Feb and the local Laser Dealer is doing a special after the race, both sections of the mast and a standard sails for$798 au (Aprox$710 us) I have put a deposit down for one, but after reading these post I am wondering if its a good deal.Admitedly in geus for me its finances which direct me in my choice and I need a new lower section.

Regards
JasonB
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#89
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Jason,
You need to compare the $798 to the 'normal' cost of those three items (new) in Australia. Then you can decide if it's a good deal (for you!) or not. Others may well come to different conclusions, based on individual circumstances.
 
#90
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Hi Wavedancer,
thanks for your reply, I did my sums and you save about $400au dollars, I guess I am concerned that the sail will be flogged out shape after seeing the pictures of the sails in these post, being a novice and and not having a legal sail and thought this would be a good way.
"Shrugs"
regards
Jason
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#92
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Hi Wavedancer,
thanks for your reply, I did my sums and you save about $400au dollars, I guess I am concerned that the sail will be flogged out shape after seeing the pictures of the sails in these post, being a novice and and not having a legal sail and thought this would be a good way.
"Shrugs"
regards
Jason
Looks like a reasonable decision. You may want to pray for no wind at the Terrigal events :) ....
 
#94
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Jason,

If you're just getting up to speed in the Laser and need a new rig for a good price, go for it! The sail will be very worn out after the Seniors use it, if it is at all windy. Masters are bringing our own sails so yours will only have one regatta on it. However, the sails there will probably be in the same state as the US Olympic Trials sails that started this thread off; ugly to start with and completely blown out by the end.
 
#95
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

At the last titles I sailed, one guy I know used a sail so "blow out" that you could clearly see the batten pockets "poking" (ie there were big creases at the inboard end) and overall it had to have had about three seasons' use.

In a fleet of about 60, he held the lead in the early races and went on to place third; beaten by the world Masters champ and the Asia-Pacific Masters champ; ahead of the world GM champ and multiple world champs from other classes.

The guy who used the old sail has won three worlds, in two divisions. If it's good enoough for a triple world champ, and if it can beat other world champs, then why should an old sail be something that the average Laser sailor, who would not have been near the top 30 in that fleet, worry about their sail? It's not the sail that is the problem for the vast majority of us so why worry about it?
 
#97
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Everyone at my the frostbite series says i should try fulls. However, I dont have $600 to spend on a new rig.
 
#98
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

borrow a full rig from someone suggesting you sail them. then you know whether or not it's a good thing for you before you shell out $600+
 
R

Ross B

Guest
#99
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Everyone at my the frostbite series says i should try fulls. However, I dont have $600 to spend on a new rig.
how much do you weigh, and what are the winter winds?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Tracy, thanks for the reply. First I didn't mean to imply that Harken does make sails. Secondly what I did mean is that the sail issue has one that should have been addressed long ago and should be the issue which has been in the development stage for some time.

I realize all can be done on one ballot but what's the likelihood of that happening? The sail issue is far from resolved, honestly it will probably be another 5 years before we see anything in the way of motion for change.
My point was that since Harken has nothing to do with sails then developing new blocks does not affect any work on a solution to the issues with the sail.

This is a long thread but I think if you read back through it then I think you'll see that there was an earlier attempt to "fix the sail" which resulted in several prototype sails demonstrated at the 1999 World Council meeting. Gouvernail has a copy of one of those sails and has commented on it in the past.

I have no experience with the sail and cannot tell you why none of the improvements were adopted. But, clearly, the result of that exercise has been a long deadtime in consideration of improvements.

However, events of the past few years have brought us to the point where what can be done to improve the lifetime of the sail, without changing its performance or significantly changing the price, has become one of the front burner projects. Still, its not going to happen tomorrow, primarily because one wants to "get it right" and not have to keep tweaking it every year. And, of course, it may come to pass that the whole exercise will only serve to rediscover whatever it was in 1999 that killed improvements then.

This will be a topic at next month's World Council meeting and I hope there will be news to report after that.
 
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