Upwind - when to tack

EatChips

New Member
Just sailed at my local club in very shift conditions and got badly beaten. I always like to do a post-mortem after I sail. My conclusion was that I was tacking almost every time I got headed on the wind BUT I was tacking before the wind oscillated past its mean/median/average position. ie I was sometimes actually tacking away from the lifted tack onto the headed one!

So...my problem is... I do not sail with a compass and the very top guys don't either so how do they work out the mean/median/average wind direction to work out whether they are on a lift or header. The default cries are: use the land or use other buts BUT the the you surely cannot use the land as you are moving relative to it AND how can other boats help me with the mean/median/average wind direction?

Fellow Laserites - please help?

Ta,

Eatchips
 
EatChips said:
Just sailed at my local club in very shift conditions and got badly beaten. I always like to do a post-mortem after I sail. My conclusion was that I was tacking almost every time I got headed on the wind BUT I was tacking before the wind oscillated past its mean/median/average position. ie I was sometimes actually tacking away from the lifted tack onto the headed one!

So...my problem is... I do not sail with a compass and the very top guys don't either so how do they work out the mean/median/average wind direction to work out whether they are on a lift or header. The default cries are: use the land or use other buts BUT the the you surely cannot use the land as you are moving relative to it AND how can other boats help me with the mean/median/average wind direction?

Fellow Laserites - please help?


They are correct. You should look at the land and the direction of your bow relative to the weather mark. You are also correct in that your land marks will change as you sail up the course. Just keep up with them and you can follow the ups and downs. If you are lake sailing this is usually a lot easier to do than sailing in open water where land marks may be too far away to get a good sight on. Also, don't tack every time you get a header. Count to 10 and see if it holds before tacking. Sometimes if the breeze is up and down in velocity you'll get a "velocity header" which means you've just sailed into less breeze. If this happens change gears keep the boat going forward and see how your course settles out. If the breeze comes back your heading should too. Also, in lighter air the tacking angles become much wider. Once you get the hang of driving the boat better and measuring lifts and headers w/out a compass then you can get a compass and try sailing with your head a little more "in the boat". If you're just getting started get the basics down first.
 
Rob B said:
EatChips said:
Just sailed at my local club in very shift conditions and got badly beaten. I always like to do a post-mortem after I sail. My conclusion was that I was tacking almost every time I got headed on the wind BUT I was tacking before the wind oscillated past its mean/median/average position. ie I was sometimes actually tacking away from the lifted tack onto the headed one!

So...my problem is... I do not sail with a compass and the very top guys don't either so how do they work out the mean/median/average wind direction to work out whether they are on a lift or header. The default cries are: use the land or use other buts BUT the the you surely cannot use the land as you are moving relative to it AND how can other boats help me with the mean/median/average wind direction?

Fellow Laserites - please help?


They are correct. You should look at the land and the direction of your bow relative to the weather mark. You are also correct in that your land marks will change as you sail up the course. Just keep up with them and you can follow the ups and downs. If you are lake sailing this is usually a lot easier to do than sailing in open water where land marks may be too far away to get a good sight on. Also, don't tack every time you get a header. Count to 10 and see if it holds before tacking. Sometimes if the breeze is up and down in velocity you'll get a "velocity header" which means you've just sailed into less breeze. If this happens change gears keep the boat going forward and see how your course settles out. If the breeze comes back your heading should too. Also, in lighter air the tacking angles become much wider. Once you get the hang of driving the boat better and measuring lifts and headers w/out a compass then you can get a compass and try sailing with your head a little more "in the boat". If you're just getting started get the basics down first.

Thanks Rob. I have been sailing for quite a few years now and am normally at the right end of the fleet. I'm just thinking about things from first principles again. Your advice was to use landmarks and not to be too quick to tack... so when you sail, would I be right in assuming that you would only be sure whether you are on the lifted or headed tack to the nearest 5 degrees? - Thanks again.
 
EatChips said:
Thanks Rob. I have been sailing for quite a few years now and am normally at the right end of the fleet. I'm just thinking about things from first principles again. Your advice was to use landmarks and not to be too quick to tack... so when you sail, would I be right in assuming that you would only be sure whether you are on the lifted or headed tack to the nearest 5 degrees? - Thanks again.


It all depends of the course. 5 degrees is a very small heading change. If you are short course sailing a wind direction change of 5 degrees is not enough, (in my opinion) to tack on and w/out a compass you may not be able to pick up on a change that small. The larger the course the more significant the shift becomes realtive to the course. If you are sailing on a large, open course with a weather leg of 1 mile then a consistent 5 degree shift will most likely be worth while to tack on because you know it will come back, (you'll still need a compass to pick this up). However, most club races are short course and any shift less than 10 degrees is probably not going to be worth tacking on. If I do get headed 10 degrees or so I'll wait at least 10 seconds before tacking unless I've already determined that it is a persistant shift and I know it will come back in a couple of minutes. If it is persistant I'll tack pretty quick unless I can't get a lane. A lot of times the need for clear air and a good lane will outweigh tacking on a header. I've found in the Laser class the first and most important thing is to get a front row start. 2nd is stay in a clear lane upwind. Most fleets have some really good sailors who have had a lot of time in these boats. If you start behind them you will most likely stay behind them. In these boats the boat handling tactics are VERY important. You have to sit in the right spot for the given conditions know how to change gears quickly and keep the boat in proper trim. This is going to sound goofy, but work on being "one with the boat" first then concentrate on detailed tacticks of 5 degree windshifts and using a compass. Hope this helps.
 
Rob - all really clear less your comment about persistent shifts. I assume you meant keep on the header if you thought that the shift was going to be persistent?

Thanks,

Peter
 
EatChips said:
Rob - all really clear less your comment about persistent shifts. I assume you meant keep on the header if you thought that the shift was going to be persistent?

Thanks,

Peter


By persistent I mean that you can bet the shift will hold for a few minutes then go back to the original heading. You will see these most often in open waters. The way to find them is to get out early and sail upwind watching your heading. If you get headed stay on that course and see if after a few minutes it goes away and your original heading returns. That is a persistent shift. Those are the best shifts to tack on because you can count on them.

Some lakes are very shifty and generate "sucker headers" that will be 10 degrees or so and you'll tack on them only to see that after 30 seconds you've gone the wrong way. I did a regatta in Wyoming and on the practice day before the races we noticed that the breeze was all over the place and that the only shifts worth tacking on were at 20 degrees or more as they were the only ones that would stick around for a while. Our rule of thumb was to hold course unless we saw a 20 degree + change and it woked great.
 
hi,

It's also important that you sail on port tack if you see a gust coming (if you are sailing on the Northern Hemisphere). Then you can sail a better course on the upwind reach. But if you are sailing on the Southern Hemisphere it's better not to sail on port tack, when there is a gust coming. That has to do with the direction of the current of the low pressure area.

(sorry for bat english)
 
I wonder often this holds true - port tack in a gust? I can certainly remember times when I have been headed on port tack in a gust although you often might feel a lift due to the apparent wind moving aft.
 
emilebr said:
hi,

It's also important that you sail on port tack if you see a gust coming (if you are sailing on the Northern Hemisphere). Then you can sail a better course on the upwind reach. But if you are sailing on the Southern Hemisphere it's better not to sail on port tack, when there is a gust coming. That has to do with the direction of the current of the low pressure area.

(sorry for bat english)
While the above may be true under perfect conditions (in the middle of open water with no land influence) and a specific weather condition, I don't think that is a very good method for deciding which tack to be on. There are too many variables that effect what the wind will do on the race course and one needs to pay attention to the effects, at that point in time on the course, that are having the most influence on the wind speed and direction. In other words, get your head of the boat and look around. For example, one needs to learn to read puffs on the water and wether they will be headers or lifts. Learn how to position yourself to take advantage of the shifty type of gusts that are characteristic of offshore breezes. Learn how to time shifts in an oscillating breeze. Learn how to tell the diff between a persistant shift and an oscillating shift (and when to treat an oscillating shift as a persistant shift on the beat or run) There's more to it that that, but I'm really trying to point out that it's not as simple as being on port tack when a gust comes.
 
EatChips said:
......So...my problem is... I do not sail with a compass and the very top guys don't either so how do they work out the mean/median/average wind direction to work out whether they are on a lift or header.....

Goto the link at http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=7927&postcount=15 and follow the link, scroll down to "complementary funktion". If you test this out with our watch, you can imagine the shifts of the wind, also, if you are already on the run and have no compass (but a compass-lünette). The windward-mark is your "landmark", because this mark is fixed during racing that leg.
I think I´ve seen it on TV at Athens 2004. One of the Laser pro´s, who was in the front in that race, was often looking sharp to his watch on the run, but he had no Silva mounted on the deck. You know, Mr. Michon (the ILCA-measurer) "kills you", if you wear a watch with compass in it. So, why did this pro was watching so intensive to his watch? Pulsmeter? - in lower winds? No - I think. The leader in that upwind-leg was using that "complementary funtion", I believe.
The wind was always shifty there, so the competitors had to descide during racing in that leg which side is better.
Cheers
LooserLu




ciao
looserlu
 
49208 said:
While the above may be true under perfect conditions (in the middle of open water with no land influence) and a specific weather condition, I don't think that is a very good method for deciding which tack to be on. There are too many variables that effect what the wind will do on the race course and one needs to pay attention to the effects, at that point in time on the course, that are having the most influence on the wind speed and direction....


It's really true what I said, and it works always, even on the very small lake where the marina is. My trainer has learned me that, and he will know it best, because he got a fifth place on a worldchampionship of the Europe class.....
Sure you will have to look to oscillating wind, and other characteristics of the wind. The most important is to combine these things.
 
OK chaps thanks for all this - something to try this weekend! Sometimes I think we spend too much time talking about the latest gadget and not enough about what actually wins races - tactics!
 
emilebr said:
It's really true what I said, and it works always, even on the very small lake where the marina is. My trainer has learned me that, and he will know it best, because he got a fifth place on a worldchampionship of the Europe class.....
Are you talking about the Coriolis effect ?
 
49208 said:
Are you talking about the Coriolis effect ?
It seems to be it is that force, but from physicists I learned: For the direction of the turning of little whirlpools at the drain of a shower, it is independend if you are at the south or at the north of the globe. All depends of micro disturbances of the surface areas around that whirlpools, they say - although 99,99...% of the whirlpools (and also lowpressure areas of the weather) turn against the clock on the north of the globe.
I think Emile means if the lowpressure area of the weather turns against the clock -> than a port tack has (minimal) advantages. From hearsay I know this also. But, I think Peter/EastChips is right: Think more of right tactic´s in general. Read the surface of the Water, watch the telltales and the other competitors be quick in the boat (roll-tacking-/gybing, surfing correct the waves etc.) to get fast with the boat. Long time ago, a former German pro-Laser-coach (and now was at Athens in a bigger boat) teached upcoming-young-competitive-German-Laserites: "To win the race, you only have to do one thing: be the fastest -> get fast-fast-fast..." - sounds stupid? but it´s just the truth, I believe.
See U on the water
LooserLu
 

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