Class Politics Too much master's coverage in the Laser Sailor?

154537

Member
I recently got my fall laser sailor and noticed that a huge % of it is devoted to master's issues and results. i was wondering if anyone else out there agrees that the master's should have their own, separate magazine...
to fill the empty space their could be more technical articles that talk about technique, training, etc...
 
The following is a simple fact. Prhaps we must ignore the fact or even deny it to succeed as a game.

75% of the membership is over 35
 
gouvernail said:
75% of the membership is over 35

Actually, its more like 50%... check out this page for the end of August statistics. We have to report to ILCA on August 31, and pay membership dues by September 31, so that is effectively the end of the 2006 membership year (ie people that joined after are good through 2007).
 
Isn't regatta coverage largely a result of someone who got up off their butt, wrote something, and sent it in? If you're not seeing enough coverage of your particular events, maybe you should take that as a hint.
 
154537 said:
noticed that a huge % of it is devoted to master's issues and results. i was wondering if anyone else out there agrees that the master's should have their own, separate magazine...

I just hope that I die before I get old.
 
154537 said:
I recently got my fall laser sailor and noticed that a huge % of it is devoted to master's issues and results. i was wondering if anyone else out there agrees that the master's should have their own, separate magazine...
to fill the empty space their could be more technical articles that talk about technique, training, etc...

I just went through the Fall issue and did a quick, albeit subjective, survey. To me it looks like just under 30% of the content is Master's specific which, given the fraction of Masters to total membership, is probably fair.

If there are articles/topics that you would like to see in TLS you should feel free to let Jerelyn in the ILCA-NA office know. You can email her or call 619 222 0252 and I bet you find that she is happy to hear what people think/want.

Of course, the best way to see stuff in TLS is to help contribute by sending articles! If you have stuff that is at the Fleet or District level, pass it along to your District Secretary and I'm sure they will be happy to include it in their District Report. If something at the Region level or of general interest (technique, etc.) then send it to Jerelyn.

The deadline for the Winter issue is December 15!
 
torrid said:
Isn't regatta coverage largely a result of someone who got up off their butt, wrote something, and sent it in? If you're not seeing enough coverage of your particular events, maybe you should take that as a hint.

approved.gif
 
Isn't that amazing: over 50% over 35 in a boat that is not very comfortable and physically demanding!
I see the aging of the sailors around me and I am looking forward to being 35 myself so that I can compete in these Masters regatta's, since the young people are simply not there!
What does this mean though? Should we blame the young people, or should we blame the older generation for not attracting enough young sailors?
Georg
 
Just a few inflammatory comments.

Masters seem to like their personal No kids regattas because the masters are too chicken to sail with the more athletic sailors. Why? Their fragile old man egos fear losing. Waaaaaaa

Masters already had the chance as teenagers to use their physical strength and agility to win against their old man competitors but since becoming old have used their influence to re write the rules so young athletic sailors are forced to sit still. The masters hide behind the chicken weenie excuse that "sailing would just be a physical contest."
yeah right...Laser racing without your old man anti use of the body rules might be just like the contest you you loved to play when you were young and athletic yourselves. Selfish chicken out of shape old farts are ruining the game for the real athletes so they can compete in what is now a pathetic diluted used to be sport. Selfish selfish selfish!!!

When todays masters were young, the old guys were given occasional "look at the old guy who still comes out and even remains almost competitive" coverage. The publishers of the magazine knew nobody gave a rats patootie about old has been guys. Most of the coverage was about the real cutting edge sailors, the great parties, the fun and the sheer excitement of great racing where everybody was having fun in a great boat...TOGETHER.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER!!
Of course now we have split the fleet into Lasers, Laser wimpy rigs for girly girls, Laser wimpy rigs for girly boys, Laser teenie weenie rigs for little people who ought to be in Optis, Lasers for old men, Lasers for even older men, Lasers for absurdly old men, wimpy rigs for girly old men, wimpy rigs for social security aged old men, and soon these divisions will be further divided by those who have new fast laminated foils and slow flexible foam foils.

Is it any wonder the fleets are pathetically tiny and the cool kids quit bothering to come as soon as they can drive?

Summary:
We need one Laser with one rig and one sail for all sailors so we can all go to the same starting line and have sailboat races around the same courses.
Certaionly the little folks will win in light air and the big folks will win when the wind is 15 to 20. When the wind is 0 to 5 or over 20 size will not matter and technique and tactics will separate the sailors from the wannabe sailors.

Flame away!!
 
154537 said:
I recently got my fall laser sailor and noticed that a huge % of it is devoted to master's issues and results. i was wondering if anyone else out there agrees that the master's should have their own, separate magazine...
to fill the empty space their could be more technical articles that talk about technique, training, etc...


Wait for it you will be there soon enought....
 
gouvernail said:
Just a few inflammatory comments.
---snip---

Summary:
We need one Laser with one rig and one sail for all sailors so we can all go to the same starting line and have sailboat races around the same courses.
Certaionly the little folks will win in light air and the big folks will win when the wind is 15 to 20. When the wind is 0 to 5 or over 20 size will not matter and technique and tactics will separate the sailors from the wannabe sailors.

Flame away!!

rugerman.gif


I think there are a couple ways to look at this, you certainly present one view.

Just for discussion sake, I'd argue that more then half the old farts that go to a master's only event would never go to an open regatta even if there were no masters events. They would just leave the class and find another class that caters to them. I'd support that with the theory that prior to the masters events being born, the class had less then half of the current paying masters.

As far as old farts getting Rule 42 changed, as you like to point out, if you want something changed, you have to pick up the hammer and change it. So all the athletic or pro-kinetic people need to get together and make their voices heard and present a suitable alternative to the current rules. A little whine here or there from a few voices isn't going to do the job. Certainly getting themselves into political position within the class and/or ISAF to further that cause (or any other that would shift bias their way) would help. So, where are all these poeple ? For whatever reason, they don't seem to be stepping up to the plate. Oddly enough, it is the old farts that seem to be taking the lead in this, they at least talked and I think tried some loosening of parts of Rule 42 this year in a few regattas...

Not sure I understood all your comments on the radial and 4.7 Without those rigs, for sure we would loose people on the race course and class membership to other boats if we all had to sail full rigs. At least we are "keepin it in the family". Long time ago, I could count on one hand the number of women sailing at a Laser regatta when all we had were full rigs. The others were sailing sunfish where I was sailing or sitting on the beach
 
the past 3 comments have made me wonder why we have rule 42. Rule 42 just takes away another aspect of this ever evolving sport, it seems like the only reason it is there is because people, coughmasterscough, complained about it and they thought it gave other people unfair advantages casue they couldnt do it as well as them.
 
sailor327 said:
the past 3 comments have made me wonder why we have rule 42. Rule 42 just takes away another aspect of this ever evolving sport, it seems like the only reason it is there is because people, coughmasterscough, complained about it and they thought it gave other people unfair advantages casue they couldnt do it as well as them.

Rule 42 is part of the Racing Rules of Sailing. It isn't just a Laser rule--it's for all sailboats that race.

Honestly, some of the comments here make think that you feel that master's sailing really takes something away from the sport. I'd think the youngsters would be happy to have the geezers on a separate course. Many young people sure make an effort to keep away from old people the rest of the time!
 
It's not just old farts that complained about kinetics - you could say it was a body of people who felt it gave the full time sailors (loosely defined as anyone who can sail as often as they want) a clear advantage over those who could only sail/train/perfect their kinetics when time/job/money/family/etc/etc/ permitted. There were other factors as well besides this aspect in the ever evolving rules of kinetics..

There are a select few who can be described as full time sailor and a large majority of all ages who don't.

Does that mean it was the right decision ?
Should the game be defined so that the minority are happy or the majority ?
Do we need different games ? (perhaps where one game is a no holds barred)
What about spending limits ? (Some classes limit the amount of sails you can buy in a year for example)


dunno.gif
 
I sail in Masters events because sometimes they are all I can find and I like racing .....period.

I do not enjoy the pleasure of sailing while the kids are thrown off the course as much as I would enjoy that pleasure of sailing against the kids and old farts at the same time.

As a master, I have sailed in the Midwinters and won every single race by a long distance against the apprentice, master, women, and junior fleets. My pleasure in that event was found racing in the teens of the entire fleet against the teens and twenty somethings who were sailing near me.

Why the hell would any sailor want to exclude any other sailor, especially one who might serve as competition, from any Laser race?
 
I think the reason none of the young guys step up and take positions within the class is that we don't have time. I for one try to sail every moment I can but between school, homework, and work it is hard to sail more than twice a week, much less participate in the class.
 
Laser170806 said:
I think the reason none of the young guys step up and take positions within the class is that we don't have time. I for one try to sail every moment I can but between school, homework, and work it is hard to sail more than twice a week, much less participate in the class.

If there is no school there is work, and if there is no work or school there is sailing. I don't know if time is the reason. We all have time limitations (yes we are mortal)!
In any case, I often encounter people (both young and old) who think that if you pay the entry fees for regattas and your club fees, you are entitled to an unlimited amount of sailing. Many sailors have never been on a RC. I can not explain this phenomenon, but I think clubs need to educate their members and tell them very clearly that sailing is made possible by volunteers and that you are also supposed to step up the plate once in a while. That can mean that you run a crashboat once a month, that you help with race committee work, organize a regatta, write for the Laser Sailor, or do some maintenance work on the club house.

In other words, it is not a choice between school or work and sailing, but between sailing every race or sailing 95% of the races.
Georg
 
Georg W.F. said:
If there is no school there is work, and if there is no work or school there is sailing. I don't know if time is the reason. We all have time limitations (yes we are mortal)!
In any case, I often encounter people (both young and old) who think that if you pay the entry fees for regattas and your club fees, you are entitled to an unlimited amount of sailing. Many sailors have never been on a RC. I can not explain this phenomenon, but I think clubs need to educate their members and tell them very clearly that sailing is made possible by volunteers and that you are also supposed to step up the plate once in a while. That can mean that you run a crashboat once a month, that you help with race committee work, organize a regatta, write for the Laser Sailor, or do some maintenance work on the club house.

In other words, it is not a choice between school or work and sailing, but between sailing every race or sailing 95% of the races.
Georg

Amen. Life is a balance. You get what you give. If it's school and work that keeps you from sailing when you're young, it'swork and family obligations, (like your kid that has soccer games or something) that keeps you away when you're older. You MAKE the time to be involved. Sometimes that means you sacrifice time on the water for yourself to make the class better for everyone. That's how you "give back" to our sport. Class dues help too, but I'd argue it's people giving their free time and energy that make up the most successful part of any successful class or class event.
 
Rob B said:
it'swork and family obligations, (like your kid that has soccer games or something)
Thats why if i have kids im goin to help them develop a love for sailing, im going to have enough kids to have my own little sailing team. and ill have the gigantic money tree in the back to fund it.:p
 
Getting back to the original topic - two thoughts

1. the class should be catering to the younger set or else it will die off. I had the same impression when I saw the Laser Sailor - why is there an master (grand?) on the cover? Why not some attractive youngster?

2. Why is the class still printing a magazine? It is costly and quite honestly boring.

The class should take the money they save on printing and postage and spend it on a website that people want to go to and use.
 
BRace said:
Getting back to the original topic - two thoughts

1. the class should be catering to the younger set or else it will die off. I had the same impression when I saw the Laser Sailor - why is there an master (grand?) on the cover? Why not some attractive youngster?

2. Why is the class still printing a magazine? It is costly and quite honestly boring.

The class should take the money they save on printing and postage and spend it on a website that people want to go to and use.




My take on the magazine is:
1. It is something a sailor can hold . It is value.
2 it is a tool for dissemination of the information we MUST distribute.

The current problem remains our magazine is printed in a much too expensive format and that format keeps the magazine from being an effective tool.

When the newsletter was printed on newsprint it had everything it has today PLUS!!! much more story content, ten times the photos ( of sailors having fun), information about fleets you might join, more information about regattas you might want to attend and...we always printed about 3000 extra copies to leave around anywhere we could manage to have them left.
With a newsprint publication, we could afford to send stacks of newsletters to dozens of gatherings of sailors all over North America.

Over the years I have seen Laser Sailor magazines in the cars of many sailors. Many times the publication had the set of directions published in it which had helped the vehicle navigate its way to the event where I enjoyed time sailing with the driver and passengers.
With flashy clay covered paper for media, we cannot afford to publish most of the very most important information which is necessary for the health and growth of the game of Laser sailing.


I love pretty stuff as much as the next guy. For 12 years The NA Laser Classs Assiciation published a newsprint magazine because professional managers who dedicated their lives to the gathering and dissemination of information about our game could find no better way to effectively accomplish the goals of the class. Newsprint is cheap. Newspaper printing takes hours and the elapsed time from delivery to the printer to your mailbox is the shortest with a newsprint newsletter.
It is bad enough that information in the newsprint newsletter is a couple weeks out of date when it arrives. Our current format guarantees delivery of information that is months old.
and

The more expensive version which takes loinger to disseminate gives us less space for the essential information we must disseminate to survive....much less grow.

Summary:

The current newsletter format is a waste of our resources and we could be doing a much better job for a lot less money.
 
The masters hide behind the chicken weenie excuse that "sailing would just be a physical contest."
yeah right...Laser racing without your old man anti use of the body rules might be just like the contest you you loved to play when you were young and athletic yourselves. Selfish chicken out of shape old farts are ruining the game for the real athletes so they can compete in what is now a pathetic diluted used to be sport. Selfish selfish selfish!!!"


It's not selfish selfish selfish. The first ever international small boat class - the sailing canoes - banned kinetics back in the 1800s. Why? Because this sport is not about rolling and pumping yourself around a course, it's about sailing.

You don't have to insult everyone who doesn't happen to hold the same views as you, you know.

I know of Laser sailors who are also currently 2nd nationally in a class that allows unrestricted pumping, and 1st/2nd nationally in a class that allows unrestricted pumping downwind, yet who oppose pumping in Lasers.

Why? Because it opens the racing up too much. It makes it too hard to attract new sailors. It turns the majority of people off. It detracts from skills people like in sailing (trimming etc) and rewards grunt and effort. If you want to do that, get a rowboat.

Personally, I do best in pumping conditions in the above classes, yet I oppose pumping. People CAN oppose pumping because they have seen it destroy classes, not because they are selfish.
 
gouvernail said:
Summary:

The current newsletter format is a waste of our resources and we could be doing a much better job for a lot less money.


Actually... the current newsletter format is less than one week from delivery of pdf file to mailing and many people are now receiving TLS within 2 weeks of Jerelyn shipping to the printer (remember that we send bulk mail). More importantly, TLS has now become self supporting (in fact, it even made a little bit of money this last issue) since the magazine is a great vehicle for Laser specific advertisers to reach their market and, judging by demand, they really like it (thank you advertisers!).

The World is an ever changing place and keeping pace is always difficult... back when TLS was newsprint people were not as online as they are now, everyone did not have a cell phone, cars did not come with in-dash navigation systems and google maps didn't exist. When you walk by a car at a regatta nowadays you are more likely to see a printout of google map directions, or a gps system, or maybe a gps mapping phone (I've seen them!).

A fair bit of information that used to be in TLS can be considered to be time sensitive (e.g. classified ads, regatta NORs, Grand Prix rankings, etc.). People who sell things typically don't want to wait through a 3 month cycle to get bids on their items, regatta NORs sometimes change and once printed in TLS people could have the wrong information, a surprisingly large number of people want to see the latest Grand Prix rankings yesterday, etc.

Other pieces of information are maybe less time sensitive but are probably also much better dealt with on the website. For example, each District page on the website has a listing of fleets with links to what can be their own pages (see this example) where they can advertise for people to come sail with them.

ALL of this stuff is now available online through the Laser Class website (where one should note that we link to TLF classifieds in order to avoid duplication of effort).

The website is a constant work in progress with many new features cominig within the next two months. For example, soon you will be able to click on "location" in a regatta listing and it will bring up a google map from which you can get driving directions from your home. We are also in the process of putting the membership databases online (with Regatta Network making sure it is done in a very secure manner), as well as revamping the District pages. And, of course, news is always getting added. This is also a great time to make solid suggestions for further improvements since we are making other improvements over the next two weeks anyway.

We can argue whether there is any need for a publication at all since we could (and for many do) publish regatta results and reports, technique articles and other writeups on the class website. However, I agree with Fred that it is a membership value (and the glossy format hopefully gives some extra value) and that it is still a great tool for disseminating information and attracting people to Laser sailing. And it is not that regatta schedules and fleet listings have completely disappeared from TLS either. Remember that we include an insert in the Winter and Spring editions with the full regatta schedule and full fleet listings when it is presumed that people are still planning their schedules for the year (and, believe me, getting next year's regatta schedule for all the Districts by December 15 is an impossible task).

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!
 
BRace said:
Getting back to the original topic - two thoughts

1. the class should be catering to the younger set or else it will die off. I had the same impression when I saw the Laser Sailor - why is there an master (grand?) on the cover? Why not some attractive youngster?

See the attached ILCA-NA membership profile taken from this link on the class website. We have a large proportion of Masters sailors because they have something like a 45 year age range to draw from while the pre-college set can, realistically, only draw on about 6 years. Still, things are looking pretty good to me at the youth end, especially the number of Radial sailors and in particular the sizeable (and growing) fraction of female sailors.

Once the 4.7 gets established I would expect this end to grow dramatically.

2. Why is the class still printing a magazine? It is costly and quite honestly boring.

See my response to Fred's response to this question.
As always, if you think there is content that should be more interesting to you then you should contact the Class Office and let them know. Asking for something doesn't mean you get it because someone still has to produce the requested article, but it helps give them guidance when they are setting up for the next issue. Alternatively, you have until December 15 to contribute something for the Winter issue (which is always the best way to get the content you want!).

As an aside, the Class Office is always looking for pictures to print in TLS. However, you need to make sure you have a photo credit, can identify the people in the picture (we like to have captions) AND that the photo is print quality. This last point is important, most pictures posted on the web are lower resolution (to make the file size smaller) and are NOT print quality and, unfortunately, can't be used.
 

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SFBayLaser said:
Actually... the current newsletter format is less than one week from delivery of pdf file to mailing and many people are now receiving TLS within 2 weeks of Jerelyn shipping to the printer (remember that we send bulk mail).
Cool fabulous!!
SFBayLaser said:
More importantly, TLS has now become self supporting (in fact, it even made a little bit of money this last issue) since the magazine is a great vehicle for Laser specific advertisers to reach their market and, judging by demand, they really like it (thank you advertisers!).
Maybe a pretty shiny newsletter is so impressive to the typical person that everything else is by comparison a minor consideration in the resulting perceived value.
Covering the cost of newsletters with advertising in newsprint was pretty easy to accomplish. We used to bring in about $6000 an issue and spend about that much to pay the editors and print it. ( or you could say we used to pay for printing and distribution with advertising funds and that the newsletter subsidized our operations to the tune of about $8000 a year.)

But whining on....Just because somebody is willing to pay for it, doesn't necessarily mean the money is being well spent. All advertising money actually comes from sailor pockets. If the newsletter is primarily a tool for dissemination of information, I find it hard to believe the current format is the most effective tool for disseminating that information.
SFBayLaser said:
BUT~!! believe me, getting next year's regatta schedule for all the Districts by December 15 is an impossible task).

Damn tootin!!
And thankless as well!!
One year I hired a "Home for Thanksgiving and Christmas" college girl to sit in the office and do whatever she could for three full weeks to simply contact all last years hosts, all the district secretaries, all the fleet captains, and then to look at any website she could find in North America with any regatta listed that might even possibly have a start for Lasers. This was in addition to all the regattas we were told about by volunteers and those I had found myself by doing whatever it was I did.
The resulting list of about 400 events had at least a couple dozen wrong dates and places culled from improperly posted schedules.
While she was assembling the list I updated the Laser.org website nightly with her latest finds. Whenever new regattas were added to any district list we emailed the district secretary with notification of those additipons and requested further information. She emailed the schedules to the various district secretaries and asked for corrections and additions before we went to press, called the district secretaries who failed to return emails and ...
even though some of the information had been on line for over two months..
shortly after the newsletter with the schedule was published..
Three of the district secretaries complained that we had published improper and inaccurate information.

Just to be certain I am clear...
Although I often wish your attention would be enthusiastically focused in a different direction, all of the class officers and hired hands are doing lots of stuff I know needs to be done and I absolutely would rather not have to do myself. I appreciate every minute anybody spends doing any of the endless work it takes to make the Laser game prosper!!

SFBayLaser said:
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

And what can we do to resurrect the traditional Thanksgiving Regatta Bruce Cup??
 
Keep the paper format! I hate reading stuff on a computer screen and I will never be able to find an article I liked again. Besides, you can take it anywhere and read it during a boring moment in your day.

Gouvernail, your comments about contacting district secretaries and regatta organizers makes me depressive: why can people never simply do what they are supposed to do? I have organized regatta's where it was impossible to get certain classes to come to the event, because they were so disorganized that after 5 reminders they still did not know when the regatta would take place.

How is this possible? I am not sure, but often it seems that someone who screwed up something is elected for an important function to make up for whatever s/he screwed up. We end up with an even bigger mess, because you elect people who are not interested, who are somewhat resentful, and who screw things up anyway.
What is the answer? We need good people to step up the plate and do something they are capable of doing, for their club, their fleet, their class, their district, for the sport of sailing!
Will we find these people? No, but the question is: will these people find us?
In other words: Do not ask what your laser class can do for you, but ask what you can do for your laser class!

Georg
 
I too like the current Laser Sailor format but I hope the back issues keep getting archived on the website. I didn't realize they were until just now when I went to take a look. . . While I do hang on to the print copies it's nice to know that if I lose one or I'm at work or something and want to refer to an article I can look it up.

If the class is looking to save money in this area they could investigate uploading the Laser Sailor sooner, like on the "press" date, so the impatient and tech types can read it online before it arrives in the mail. If that proves popular the class could offer an e-mail/online only choice for the newsletter to the membership. If enough people preferred that option it might save some money in printing in postage. FWIW I prefer to get the print copy myself but some might prefer the higher tech option.
 
I also like the current print format. I like color printing. I like photos. I especially like the tech and technique articles. I read the ads, learn things, buy stuff. I like to see results printed, and recognize names I know in the standings. I too like back issues that I can refer to.

I agree that the class should be encouraging younger sailors and women sailors and build for the future. I am a masters sailor who wants the fleet to be strong well into the future as well as keep it's Olympic status. There are new hot rod boats coming along every few years and someday one of them may be selected. All that said, if you look at the graph posted, that strong constituency at the 45+ peak also needs to be represented and taken care of.
 
just to clarify since i was the one who started this post-
i like the laser sailor, especially when the laser world insert is included.
but the fact remains, the masters choose to exclude the youngins from their events, and now they are taking over TLS, just when the fleet desperately needs to attract younger members...
why not just eliminate masters specific events, and just sail everyone together and separate out the scoring any way you like later?
call me crazy, but arent there masters out there who may want to participate in the same events as their kids??????
 
if you started the thread, don't you understand that any master only event also has a corresponding junior or open event. do you feel that there are too many masters events? there is not. there are tons of laser regattas with separate scoring. i don't get it. there are tons of junior or age limit laser events too. next you'll be asking to race 4.7's, radials, and full rigs together and score them equal. if someone organizes a regatta it's to fill a need, not keep people from racing in it.
 
what do you mean has a corresponding open event?
obviously there are na's, us champs etc, for each catagory but the point is they are completely separate events that require extra planning, resources, yacht clubs, race committee's, etc.
plus, as fred said, fleets get diluted with the more sub-catagories you create.

yes, we all hate losing to people younger than us. im 26, and junior sailors who can practice everyday will beat me when im rusty, but im not going to go and create some event thats just for 20-35 year olds...

please dont take offense to my comments, i recognize the masters are clearly a huge part of the NA laser class, are well organized, and turn out well for events!
i just think if you were to eliminate the duplicity of these corresponding events, and truely combine them in the same venue and race courses, time, money and resources would be saved, plus events such as the PCC's, US champs, etc would be that much bigger/better.
 
yeah, by corresponding i meant that there are Nat'l, US, NA, etc. and yes, there are separate regattas. but, alot of the master competitors sail in both. i did not know that there was a strain on resources and time to sponsor these separate events. i am always thankful and respectful of any organizers of sailing events. but, i also volunteer my time for events in my district and try to participate as often as possible.

as for the dilution, i guess i look at how unique the Laser class is. the fact that it can offer so much diversity. it's unfortunate that not every district or Area or Association can attract large turnouts to every event they host. i don't see how that can be helped. there are too many opportunities out there, and you can't make everybody happy.

i'm not out to offend any body either, these are just my opinions. i talk the boat and the class up wherever i am. not because of anything i do , numbers and turnout seem to be ok where i race. will it last? i don't know.
 
So you guys sound like you begrudge the 50 to 80 year olds their own events. Some of them wouldn't sail at all without masters events, I'll bet.

Plus, and I think this is big, do you really think the kids want to sail against 75 year olds?
 

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