Class Politics TLF Friendly to Women?

Merrily

Administrator
I’ve recently been thinking that The Laser Forum is not very woman friendly. I base that assessment on the level of strife here and the hard hitting jokes and my own discomfort with these two things. I also started thinking about how many women regularly post here. Others check in from time to time, but really, there’s me, and well, there’s me. I’m here because I want to be on the fast learning curve to sailing, and I also enjoy giving something to the Laser Class. I’m comfortable around men with a loving father, 3 older brothers, a great husband, and two fine sons.

I have only speculation on the low level of female participation here and I’d like to explore the question and try to improve participation. A girl gets lonely. Also, it’s my understanding that most of you like to sail with women, especially when they are appropriately attired. ;) Perhaps participation here could improve participation on the water.

There’s the question of interest. Maybe most women just aren’t that interested in talking about Lasers?

Questions to think about, does your wife, mother, girlfriend, daughter read TLF? Would you want her to? What do the female members of the forum think? Why is participation low?
 
I'm often considered to be an "old woman" - does that count ?

Sorry, I've probably just done exactly what you were suggesting we should not do. However, I do agree that there are relatively few women posters though normally with such things I think everybody should be encouraged rather than specific groups. If there is something discouraging female posters it may easily be discouraging male posters as well and probably needs sorting.

That said and being a bloke I am probably not sensitive enough to the type of comments that discourage women to post.

In the US, are their many women Laser sailors and do those that there are tend to club race or go round the regattas. In France there are a few who do regattas though from my (limited) experience they are a minority. Unsure about club racing as clubs here don't seem to do the club racing thing as I experienced in the UK and assume happens in the US (sort of "Wed evening Series" and "Spring Series" over 10 Sunday mornings, etc.).

Ian
 
I'm often considered to be an "old woman" - does that count ?

You made me smile, Ian. :)

If there is something discouraging female posters it may easily be discouraging male posters as well and probably needs sorting.

That's an interesting idea and worth exploring. BTW, people, feel please PM me if you don't feel comfortable publicly expressing your views on these issues.

In the US, are their many women Laser sailors and do those that there are tend to club race or go round the regattas. In France there are a few who do regattas though from my (limited) experience they are a minority. Unsure about club racing as clubs here don't seem to do the club racing thing as I experienced in the UK and assume happens in the US (sort of "Wed evening Series" and "Spring Series" over 10 Sunday mornings, etc.).

Ian

In my neck of the woods there are a few women club racers and even fewer at the regattas. There are a large number of teen girls in the I-LYA junior program and they sail their own circuit. As far as I can tell, we are not getting them here on the forum, except for the young woman who made the Laser sail skirt. She was from the I-LYA circuit.
 
Merrily, do you really think that women are uncomfortable with "hard hitting jokes," sarcasm, and the occasional argument? Isn't that type of attitude a bit Victorian? I bet if one of us evil men advanced such an opinion we would be labeled male chauvinists in an instant.

I base that assessment on the level of strife here and the hard hitting jokes.

If that's true, then perhaps changing the forum color scheme to something other than the current blue/grey/light blue one would also help...because as we all know, women have more affinity for pink. ;)
 
merrily: i've been a longtime reader and post-er on TLF. i've never gotten the impression that there are non-friendly posts, comments, or threads directed at women. in fact, there is generally a polite, level headed attitude. granted, you, bradley, tracy, and others seem to keep a good eye on content and how harsh some threads may become. of course, my male perspective may be missing something. i don't think specifics should be cited, and by just bringing up the subject i'm sure there will be an increased level of care given to future posts. just my opinion.
 
merrily: i've been a longtime reader and post-er on TLF. i've never gotten the impression that there are non-friendly posts, comments, or threads directed at women.

I'm not saying that these things are directed at women. Just that women, and as Deimos pointed out, some men may be uncomfortable with these things.
 
Merrily, do you really think that women are uncomfortable with "hard hitting jokes," sarcasm, and the occasional argument? Isn't that type of attitude a bit Victorian? I bet if one of us evil men advanced such an opinion we would be labeled male chauvinists in an instant.

Yes, I think that many women are, just as many aren't. I was expressing my feelings, not giving a blanket condemnation. You have illustrated what I'm talking about by accusing me of being Victorian. It seems one can't discuss a topic here without it becoming combat. I'm trying to problem solve as to why there are so few women posters here.

What is your explanation of why so few women are on TLF?
 
I'm not saying that these things are directed at women. Just that women, and as Deimos pointed out, some men may be uncomfortable with these things.

Have you ever seen or read a forum that is comprised entirely of women?

They seem nice on the surface...but there is usually an undercurrent of suppressed nastiness that regularly flares up with dramatic consequences.

For example, my wife is a member of a number of pregnancy related forums. The signature files in these forums consist of dozens of sparkly images, cute photos, and slideshows. The posts are supportive, informative, and friendly. Everyone is careful not to offend anyone. Each post begins with a response to each previous poster in the thread. It's a very warm and fuzzy place...

Except that about once a year the entire forum descends into a round of bitter infighting during which insults are thrown around liberally. Usually one group of members gangs up on another group and gets them kicked out of the forum. The outcasts vow never to speak to their antagonists again and usually start a new forum.

Because of the open discussion on TLF including sarcasm, jokes and meaningful arguments, we will hopefully never reach such a point.
 
Have you ever seen or read a forum that is comprised entirely of women?

You seem to me to be angry, Chris.

I'm not proposing a forum entirely of women.

I am a member of the Navy Moms Online, and it's true that there are plenty of sparkles and flowers. I don't know of any blow ups there, maybe because of the topic, our sons. But you again illustrate my point. It seems to me that there are regular flare ups here. If only there was one big blow up a year.

A girlfriend of mine, a Laser sailor, and the person who taught me about sailing sportsmanship, stopped coming here after the attack on Brody Cobb over a year ago. It seems to me that there were more women here then, at least the occasional poster, but that incident may have turned off more than two people, me and her.

It's interesting that you describe coming here as arguing on the internet. Why does TLF have to be arguing? It wasn't the first year that I was here as a member, then as a moderator. If fact, the anonymous bashing of Brody Cobb was the watershed moment in my mind in the break from civility, to the edginess of today's forum.
 
It seems to me that there are constant flare ups here.

The little tiffs we get into here are what make the forum worth hanging around on. If the posts were purely informational like Wikipedia, then this would be a boring place indeed (although the behind-the-scenes discussions there can get pretty heated too).
 
The little tiffs we get into here are what make the forum worth hanging around on. If the posts were purely informational like Wikipedia, then this would be a boring place indeed

Here is where we disagree.

Still, even if what you say were true, which I'm not actually agreeing to, how do we bring in more women?
 
It seems to me that there were more women here then, at least the occasional poster, but that incident may have turned off more than two people, me and her.

It's interesting that you describe coming here as arguing on the internet. Why does TLF have to be arguing? It wasn't the first year that I was here as a member, then as a moderator. If fact, the anonymous bashing of Brody Cobb was the watershed moment in my mind in the break from civility, to the edginess of today's forum.

I don't know what that episode was all about, but there's a difference between "anonymous bashing" and the occasional argument about Laser class politics. Perhaps it is my training or my upbringing, but I don't see argument as a negative thing. Argument is just a discussion between parties with different viewpoints. If not for argument, every informational post on this forum would be followed by a post saying: "That sounds nice, good luck." Instead of: "I don't really agree with that, and this is why..."
 
... I don't see argument as a negative thing. Argument is just a discussion between parties with different viewpoints.

Might depend on the language people use. Expressed badly (or maybe accurately) discussing a point can sometimes sound very aggressive. A discussion where all parties are interested in other ideas and different ways of looking at things, maybe to broaden their own opinions is normally interesting and productive. However, on occasions you can get individuals who "like to be right" or thought of as "the expert" - and then your discussions can become somebody strongly defending their point, completely closed to other possibilities and aspects as they perceive that to change opinion would be to "back down" and have "their credibility dented". Its actually the same on a lot of forums (fora ?).


Of course all things are a matter of degree.


Ian
 
Discussion: n
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

Debate: n
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints.
2. deliberation; consideration.
3. Archaic. strife; contention.

Argument: n
1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate.

Insult: v
1. To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness. See Synonyms at offend.
2. To affront or demean.

Rude: adj
1. discourteous or impolite, esp. in a deliberate way: a rude reply.
2. without culture, learning, or refinement.
3. rough in manners or behavior; unmannerly; uncouth.
4. rough, harsh, or ungentle

It's all in how you make your point. Things also come across differently in print than they do in person. I agree that something has changed here - random combination of events and people perhaps.

I just want to learn more about the boat and how to make it go faster.

To answer the initial question, maybe if more people were passionate about the boat, including women, they would come here to learn to sail it better. In my district, we hope to get more women involved in sailing and racing. Many that I talk to are not aware that Lasers are not an all-guy sport.
 
OK, so I agree that argument in the sense of debate is cool. It's when it gets contentious, rude, and insulting that it is a problem. The point that things come across differently in print than in person is well made. We can't see the sparkle in your eyes and hear the friendly tone of voice.

Chris, thanks for the suggestion of flowers and pink stuff! :p First time visitors will definitely see right off that women post here. I'm on the prowl for sparkles.
 
I'd like to mention that I lurk quite a bit here as well as on the SailingAnarchy discussion boards. If I were to compare the two based on my own personal experience, I'd say that:

1) This forum hosts much more well behaved people
2) There appear to be more female posters to the SailingAnarchy forums.

This is not to say that I believe anyone is wrong here, just commenting on subjectivity and relativity. It occurs to me that, on the Internet, some of us tend to hide behind avatars and anonymity so we can safely take shots at undeserving victims. Other times we just forget that there are real people with real feelings on the other side of the screen. I wonder if there aren't web sites where everyone operates under this assumption; man or woman. It seems like an easy thing to do, unfortunately.

I like your name. Merrily - That's nice. I also really appreciate your input around here. You seem to be quite the wealth of knowledge.
 
2) There appear to be more female posters to the SailingAnarchy forums.


I like your name. Merrily - That's nice. I also really appreciate your input around here. You seem to be quite the wealth of knowledge.

Well, maybe I'm operating under a false assumption. Perhaps Sailing women like it wild and edgy. However, as the forum supplier of the ILCA-NA, I don't think that would be appropriate or welcome by the class.

Thanks for the compliment!

I changed my flower avatar. The other one was too cloying for me. Never was a girly girl. Sparkles though. . .:rolleyes:
 
I'm a woman, I post here fairly often and I race radials and full rigs. I also lurk on Sailing Anarchy but almost never post there partly because it truly is a hotbed of aggressive sexist anonymous jerks. It's also a much, much larger community with some good posters and interesting perspectives among the c**p, which is why I bother with reading it from time to time. I find the Laser Forum to be very well-behaved most of the time, and anytime people get too out of hand, the moderators crack down on them. Even the same individuals (you know who you are) who post here and on SA are much more polite here. Perhaps I missed the rude Laser Forum threads people are referring to.

My guess as to why few women post here has more to do with simple proportions. Think of all the Laser sailors you know and how few of them post here. Also, look at all the people registered that don't post, either. There just are a lot less women Laser sailors than men around, especially with adults, so if you took the percentage of active men Laserites who post and then applied it to how many active women Laserites there are, it can't be that big of a number. Why less women race Lasers would be the topic of another thread, and probably has been but I don't feel like searching for it right now. (now I remember-the red rhombus thread started to go there) We're not going to get more women posting until more women are out sailing. This is, of course, just my opinion.
 
I was going to post something similar to what Michelle just wrote. It's a numbers game and her last paragraph stated it well.
 
My guess as to why few women post here has more to do with simple proportions.

Yes, there is something to the proportions idea, but there's an average about 150 members who log in here daily, so two women posters still seems low to me. I figure that some of the women only read, and some have names that aren't gender specific. I guess that some of the anonymous posters could even be women.

I say to the women, come out, come out, where ever you are!
 
I'm new here. Just bought my laser 2 weeks ago, but... I have been pretty actively sailing both Tasars and big boats for the past 4 years. Point blank there just aren't that many woman sailors and even fewer who feel comfortable taking the helm - including a laser. So, to augment the above post, I think it is a numbers game as well as a confidence game. 1) We need to get more women out there sailing, 2) we need to get them comfortable enough to step out and take the helm 3) we need them to realize that they can be an active part of the fleet discussions and this forum.
 
I'm new here. Just bought my laser 2 weeks ago, but... I have been pretty actively sailing both Tasars and big boats for the past 4 years. Point blank there just aren't that many woman sailors and even fewer who feel comfortable taking the helm - including a laser. So, to augment the above post, I think it is a numbers game as well as a confidence game. 1) We need to get more women out there sailing, 2) we need to get them comfortable enough to step out and take the helm 3) we need them to realize that they can be an active part of the fleet discussions and this forum.

Here, here!

Welcome to the forum, Grrladventure!
 
As soon as I have finished composing my sexist rant, I will further contribute it to this thread.

Meanwhile>>>

What does Eliza Doolittle, AKA Ribecca have to say about this subject??

And Rebecca Mandeville AKA Laserbabee?? Anybody heard from her lately?
 
Hey Gov, how do you think TLF is for women compared to Sailing Anarchy?
I know there are quite a few women that are loved and adored over on SA. In fact, I think there are many, many more women on SA than here
 
I'm new to this laser blogging thing but I've been racing against a majority of men for over 20 years now - first in windsurfers and now lasers. Thus far I haven't had an issue with the content of the blog - but maybe I'm jaded when it comes to guy "talk". The bottom line is if you want the blog to be more lady friendly there needs to be an increase in women's participation in the sport. Face it - the ladies are scarce! At my last regatta it was me and one other woman. The rest of the female competitors average age was 16 years (and they rocked it!). In my winter frostbiting fleet (30 boats) the same story exists - me and 4 teenagers. And most of them stopped showing up 4 weeks into the season.
 
As soon as I have finished composing my sexist rant, I will further contribute it to this thread.

And Rebecca Mandeville AKA Laserbabee?? Anybody heard from her lately?

You, sexist, Fredders ;)? Never! That would reduce the number of boats on the starting line, and I know you don't want that.

I think Ribecca meant it when she said goodbye. I'd love to know what Laserbabee thinks.
 
I make 4 women, counting you, Merrily, who have now responded to this thread..

I agree with Michelle's assessment of Sailing Anarchy. I too "lurk" there but hardly ever post anything. Sexist doesn't even come close. They do have interesting and fun discussions, though.

Numbers - Tracy confirmed during our infamous "Rhombus" thread, that worldwide, the Laser Class has only about 15% women. That's way up from when I was active in the Class. (can't sail a Laser any more, too fat and my back kills me if I do) Since Rad became Olympic, I'm sure female membership is up, too. Young, smart and highly competitive females, a lot of whom migrated to Rads from the Europe Class. They might enjoy a more edgy Forum like SA.

So, let's look at it from the standpoint of Laser sailing being a mostly guys' game that some women also enjoy. Those of us who are comfortable with this demographic are, like you, women who are at ease being "one of the guys" and like to be treated as such at regattas and generally when sailing.

I'd bet we're also considered pretty "quiet" by the guys we sail with and against, compared to other women in their lives. Quiet, meaning that we can keep our opinions to ourselves when it's warranted, don't giggle or cry, and only rush out on a limb in print when it's something worthwhile.

Like the da*n Rhombus issue. I did invest some sweat equity over that, years ago, honest. But, that's maybe a reason there aren't more women on the Forum.

Getting more women out sailing? Boy, that's one that's puzzled me for many years. In my opinion, athletic girls coming up through high school, even if they are exposed to sailing, are so much more likely to be diverted to other sports and things like gymnastics (is it a sport?) and dancing that the pool of women is limited from the get go. How to get more women into sailing? Offer it at more high schools. (pigs might fly, too)

I got into sailing because my dad loved it. He scared my mother to death the first time he took her cruising, but she bravely went with him for years after. I have two sisters neither of whom sail at all. Of my two kids, my son loves to sail (but has no time) and my daughter learned, but just isn't "outdoorsy" and never raced.

At our club, we have a women's sailing group. They sail Sunfish and prams once a week on Thursdays. They have a nice time, but very few of them would ever dream of racing in an open event against men. One example of how those who go "women's" sailing are very different from the women who race Lasers. They're just not . . . <what is it??> competitive? aggressive? They let their friends cross on port to be "nice". They never yell. They're like the people at the 4-way stop who wave you through even though it's their turn. (needless to say, I do not sail with them) So, that's a group of women sailors who might NEVER look at a forum.

Female Laser sailors? We're a breed apart.

Cheers Lainie p.s. I prefer yellow, the pink smiley . . gak.
 
I make 4 women, counting you, Merrily, who have now responded to this thread..

Okay, now 5.

At our club, we have a women's sailing group. They sail Sunfish and prams once a week on Thursdays. They have a nice time, but very few of them would ever dream of racing in an open event against men. One example of how those who go "women's" sailing are very different from the women who race Lasers. They're just not . . . <what is it??> competitive? aggressive? They let their friends cross on port to be "nice". They never yell. They're like the people at the 4-way stop who wave you through even though it's their turn. (needless to say, I do not sail with them) So, that's a group of women sailors who might NEVER look at a forum.

I've sailed (in a Sunfish regatta) with the women at your sailing club and this is one source where recruiting could be done. Most may not be interested but there are a few that are more athletic, one a marathon runner and one that does triathlons. I even met one this weekend that now has a Laser Radial though I didn't get to talk to her much about it. Some even travel to Sunfish regattas. Sometimes I get asked about the Laser and I do tell them I like the Laser much better than the Sunfish. As far as being aggressive, the first time I sailed with these women I was yelled at by one who said I tacked too close and made her adjust her course. I did my turns.
 
Cindy: Don't you just hate that "tacking too close" thing? Some people have a panic attack if you tack within 3 boatlengths. Not just women, either. We were protested at St. Pete in our Melges for tacking within a boatlength of another boat. There's no WAY he could have hit us, but he claimed he had to alter course, so . . . we took a 40% penalty.

Yes, there are, as I said, a few competitive women in the Luffing Lassies and there are at least two very GOOD sailors. But they aren't Laser sailors. (did you know the Club manager playfully refers to them as the "Puffing Hussies") The names make me crazy - "Salty Sisters", "Broad Reachers" for goodness sakes!

I've never ventured out to race, mostly so that they don't find out how merciless and mouthy I am when I race, but also because I refuse to sail a Sunfish. (My dad used to call that a "latrine" rig. Very apt.)

Athletic is one thing, but a strategic competition is another. Runners aren't in strategic situations where rules such as right of way must be applied during their races, like sailors. It's a different, more direct type of competition and nice manners have no place on the race course in my world. If you're racing, you should go by the racing rules.

As I said, I think the women who stick it out sailing Lasers in open competition are a breed apart. We don't ask or give any quarter to anybody. We want to race on the level field the Laser provides. We are of a different mind set from women who play at racing against only other women. It's another sport altogether, in my mind.

On a different tack, the Laser didn't used to be a great boat for women, and still is a real handful unless you were/are big and tall and very fit. (I'm short, fat and arthritic) With the new control lines at least it's easier now to de-power the sail. The Radial, of course, is much better suited to female sailors. Maybe as the young Rad girls age into Masters, they will become more interested in forum discussions.

Conclusion, Merrily I think there are more women out there than it appears, but yes, a very small group that race Lasers seriously. (Look at the entry list for the Masters Worlds). I don't find this forum at all unfriendly and I like the discussions/debates. But then, I enjoy a good argument at times. I really enjoyed the rhombus discussion, especially after Jeff Martin and Tracy jumped in.

To be fair, I had my trial by fire years ago, when the old Laser List was active. I used to write a dozen e-mails a night when I was NA Class VP and I sure know that not everyone's going to agree and you can't please everybody.
 
Cindy: Don't you just hate that "tacking too close" thing? Some people have a panic attack if you tack within 3 boatlengths. Not just women, either. .


Is that like when somebody wears colors that don't match??

Tacky too close is more of a problem that you might think
 
What we have to do is take the helm ourselves and show other women that we can do it and hopefully they will want to do it to!
 
What we have to do is take the helm ourselves and show other women that we can do it and hopefully they will want to do it to!

This is absolutely true. Sailing by example is the way to go, though the topic of the thread refers to The Laser Forum, TLF. :)
 

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