The C5: What we know so far

All the gradual changes in the past have taken years to implement and have had to try to match the performance characteristics of the superseded equipment. This isn’t sustainable. A bold step that will position the class for the next couple of decades is what’s needed.
It's what the Laser class is supposed to be: one-design. It has been highly "sustainable" so far, and this "bold step" away from that - the creation of a de facto whole new line of classes - is a big risk. This sounds sickeningly conservative, but it's a fact. Of course the new rig looks extremely interesting... this is one of the countless things about which I'd like to be totally wrong!

ask the kids currently sailing 4.7s what they think. They’re the future of the class, and they’re having to use a silly sail shoehorned onto the existing spars. It’s not fun. The C5 is a new rig from the ground up, not a compromise like the 4.7 was.
As I've understood it, the 4.7 rig was never meant to form a racing class, but rather something relatively cheap that kids could stick on their parents' boats to have fun. The fact that such a "reefed" rig has become this popular is proof of how attractive the Laser class is. 4.7 sailors could choose boats like the Byte, Splash, Zoom8, etc, but those classes enjoy only a fairly limited regional success. The kids think it's cool to be a Laser sailor; they don't think they're making a compromise. (Although they probably won't have anything against new flashy sails either.)

The average healthy woman around the world is about 5’3 and 58-60kgs. To be competitive in a Radial you need to be at least six inches taller and 8-10 kg heavier than that. If the Laser class can create a new, top quality rig that caters for the average weight and height then they’ll be able to tap into a potentially huge market.
The weight range of top Radial sailors is about 58 - 72 kg, which covers pretty well reasonably athletic adult females of European ancestry. The "potentially huge" market is the enormous not-yet-sailing pool of Asian women. But will a million Chinese girls start sailing only because you change to a different-looking sail on an existing boat? People like Takao Otani and Julian Bethwaite may be optimistic, but that's their job!

The intent isn’t to replace the 4.7 but to provide an alternative choice. I suspect the market will quickly decide which they prefer.
The intent should be replacement: what if the "market" as a whole doesn't grow but is split into incompatible fleets nonetheless?

I suspect that if the rig doesn’t use the Laser branding/trademark, then all the builders don’t need to agree. The class can do whatever they like with their class rules, etc, they just can’t violate the trademark in doing so.
It's an interesting thought that has crossed my mind, too. It may be telling that none of the "C" sails we've seen have had the Laser insignia on them. Maybe ILCA is actually considering doing what Bruce Kirby tried to do, and what the Sunfish class almost did: dropping the class name to free yourself of a problematic rights holder. But you'd have to call the hulls something else, too...

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sailors could choose boats like the Byte, Splash, Zoom8,

You're well aware of the facts! Not many people know the Splash! The Splash is Dutch-designed dinghy. Mostly sailed in NED and NZL. Over here in Holland, there's a big fleet (150+ boats) competing nearly every weekend between March and October. The Splash' main disadvantage is the fragility of the hull... There's no dinghy that hasn't had a 'nose job'... My tool chest became quite heavy after switching from the Optimist to the Splash and I've become pretty handy with polyester and resin!

My son used to sail the Splash (and won the 2017 National Competition). So for me/us it is easy to compare the 4.7 and Splash. In short: the 4.7 sail isn't really compatible with the overall design of the Laser. Sort of 'ironing board with a handkerchief'. During Dutch regattas, it was common to start the 4.7 before the Splash. The result was that the top-20 Splash sailors sailed across the finish halfway up the 4.7 fleet! Nowadays, the Splash starts after the Radial class.

The main advantage of the Splash is the different hiking position: it's easier for youngsters with short legs. About 50% of the Dutch sailors now in the Laser, Finn or others have sailed in the Splash for a few years before changing to the Radial (and beyond) Big names: PJ Postma (Finn), Marit Bouwmeester.
 
I don’t think introducing a new rig threatens the one design ethos. The Radial and 4.7 were both newly introduced rigs once upon a time as well. This is just a new choice. When those rigs were brought out there was concern they would fragment the class, but imho they’ve only made it stronger.

I think the Radial weight range of 58-72 is very optimistic for the Radial as well. Even 65kg is a lightweight, and will only work if you’re close to six foot. Conventional wisdom here in Oz is that 65kg is the transition point to a Radial. A lot of women never get there.

I know plenty of girls and women around 55-60kg though who are excellent sailors and too small for a Radial. They’re crying out for a rig that works for them.
 
65 is the transition point here as well. Up to 72, 73 kilos. My son is 75 kilos but lacks lenght... He's going to get a tough time when stepping over to the Standard. Fellow sailors are trying to convince him to change from the Laser to the 49'er at the end of the 2019 season.
 
I don’t think introducing a new rig threatens the one design ethos. The Radial and 4.7 were both newly introduced rigs once upon a time as well. This is just a new choice. When those rigs were brought out there was concern they would fragment the class, but imho they’ve only made it stronger.

I think the Radial weight range of 58-72 is very optimistic for the Radial as well. Even 65kg is a lightweight, and will only work if you’re close to six foot. Conventional wisdom here in Oz is that 65kg is the transition point to a Radial. A lot of women never get there.

I know plenty of girls and women around 55-60kg though who are excellent sailors and too small for a Radial. They’re crying out for a rig that works for them.

Good post Redstar. This makes perfect sense. I was thinking the intent was to design complete new rigs for both radial and standard rigs. That said, I see this as more of a high end ladies Olympic OD single handed version of the Radial. It could well proliferate throughout the class, but I have a hard time seeing that happen at the price point, but who knows? Anyone know if this is the rig the class will sail for the trials in May?
 
The reason is that it's hard to bring new blood into a class when you tell a new sailor that they need to spend another $500 to updated the vang and rigging,

I am not sure you are right about that. I have talked to people who would not have bought a Laser were it not for the new vang. It's still a hard boat to sail, and it was even harder with the old 4:1 and its terrible cleating system.
 
How many years ago were the rigging upgrades implemented? Wasn't that about 2001?

Any competitive second-hand boat on the market will already have the upgraded equipment. Anybody looking at an older boat without the upgrades is a novice sailor still learning the basics, so the upgrades are not as much an issue for them.
 
I don’t think introducing a new rig threatens the one design ethos. The Radial and 4.7 were both newly introduced rigs once upon a time as well. This is just a new choice. When those rigs were brought out there was concern they would fragment the class, but imho they’ve only made it stronger.
Neither the Radial or the 4.7 ever threatened to reduce the number of sailors in the then-existing (Standard) fleets, as they targeted a different weight group. The current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs .

I think the Radial weight range of 58-72 is very optimistic for the Radial as well. Even 65kg is a lightweight, and will only work if you’re close to six foot.
Medal racers in Rio (cm/kg):

1. Bouwmeester 176/66
2. Murphy 185/72
3. Rindom 170/68
4. Van Acker 171/66
5. Tenkanen 167/62
6. Olsson 172/67
7. Scheidt 172/63
8. Young 181/67
9. Stoddart 172/70
10. Railey 173/68

Average: 174/67

(Source: olympicchannel.com)

Anyone know if this is the rig the class will sail for the trials in May?
That's the big question now - will ILCA come to the trials with the "traditional" or "C" rigs? But even in the latter case, it's more likely that they come with the bigger versions of the C5.

By the way, how do you know the trials are in May? The invitation to tender for venue selection talks about February - April. (If you have any new information, could you post it in the "Olympic status" thread?)

How many years ago were the rigging upgrades implemented? Wasn't that about 2001?
Yes. 1 October 2001.


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Interesting list with length/weight. I've spoken a few on that list, but 'what's your weight?' isn't really something that came up during the conversation :D

I'm under the impression that a lot of the current male U19 sailors are heavier than those around who are now 20 - 25 y/o - but those youngsters lack height for the transition to the Standard. Given the athletic posture of most young men, I would say that spending hours and hours in the gym has a downside, weight-wise that is. And those Standard men are really big and long!

Now with the Finn off the Olympic list, it's going to be interesting what will happen with those 'heavies'. Perhaps a more demanding large sail can compensate for the loss of the Finn.
 
Neither the Radial or the 4.7 ever threatened to reduce the number of sailors in the then-existing (Standard) fleets, as they targeted a different weight group. The current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs .

Medal racers in Rio (cm/kg):

1. Bouwmeester 176/66
2. Murphy 185/72
3. Rindom 170/68
4. Van Acker 171/66
5. Tenkanen 167/62
6. Olsson 172/67
7. Scheidt 172/63
8. Young 181/67
9. Stoddart 172/70
10. Railey 173/68

Average: 174/67

(Source: olympicchannel.com)

That's the big question now - will ILCA come to the trials with the "traditional" or "C" rigs? But even in the latter case, it's more likely that they come with the bigger versions of the C5.

By the way, how do you know the trials are in May? The invitation to tender for venue selection talks about February - April. (If you have any new information, could you post it in the "Olympic status" thread?)

Yes. 1 October 2001.


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I thought I read it online somewhere about the trials being in May. Maybe in one of the WSO letters? I could be wrong...
 
I am not sure you are right about that. I have talked to people who would not have bought a Laser were it not for the new vang. It's still a hard boat to sail, and it was even harder with the old 4:1 and its terrible cleating system.
I've sailed both setups and I don't find the old setup too bad. I do suspect the broken or bent masts from releasing the vang too late could be avoided for newer people. Of course I'm referring to club and regional racing, not the Olympics. Only in 23 knots or higher is the old setup harder to sail. As for tall the talk about the ladies sailing radial, I can only say that the one serious female Laser racer that I race with has been talking about an Aero 5.
 
This is an interesting thread, for sure. But there's a need to recognize that sailors who are aiming for the top are quite different from the great majority of Laser sailors.
 
Neither the Radial or the 4.7 ever threatened to reduce the number of sailors in the then-existing (Standard) fleets, as they targeted a different weight group.
As someone that lived through that era,, I disagree. The smaller guys and the women one week would be sailing standard rig and the next be sailing a radial as they switched to the new rig. At one regatta there would be 10 radials and 90 standard rigs and in a few months time there would be 25 radials and 75 standard rigs. The people sailing the radials early on we're not new to the class but seasoned laser sailors. It was only after a year or two did people come directly into the class to sail the radial. Similarly the adults sailing the 4.7 even now, have usually come from the radial, whilst the kids have gone directly into the 4.7.
 
The people sailing the radials early on we're not new to the class but seasoned laser sailors. It was only after a year or two did people come directly into the class to sail the radial.
It's obviously been a different story in different countries. Over here there was no Radial class before 2003, and the only Standard sailors to move to it were a small handful of Great Grand Masters. Everyone under 75 kg sailed Europes until then (and many still do).
But even in other scenarios, what I said earlier applies: the current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs.

there's a need to recognize that sailors who are aiming for the top are quite different from the great majority of Laser sailors.
Of course, but the strength of the Laser class has been to keep all those sailors of different levels in the same big tent so to speak. I am afraid that a complete redesign of the boat from the deck up will lead to the end of that.

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That's some statement indeed! That should be a start for a new thread (or several) in the politics section.

"... an onslaught of litigation and legal challenges from the International Laser Class Association in coordination with Bruce Kirby and his Australian partners at the Performance Sailcraft Pty group."

ILCA, Kirby and PSA suing LP? This has been a well-kept secret!

"... an unsigned Olympics 2020 contract and an expiring license to operate for ILCA ending August 2019."

Doesn't PSJ build the boats for 2020? Who haven't signed and why? Might we see the end of LP-built Lasers in seven months? Is this a game of who blinks first between LP and ILCA?

"... we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance."

Is this the "Doyle rig" then? Is there really an apparently unfriendly competition between LP and PSA/ILCA to get "contemporary" rigs on the market?

Many, many more questions than answers... :confused:

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Tracy Usher recently posted praising the C-rig. With this announcement we know that's going to happen. Now the big question is, "what will it do to the class?"

Is there a D-Day for the MKII and current Radial rigs to be discontinued? So much for the composite top section? Will the C-rig become another class altogether?

Are the current rigged 200,000+ Lasers in garages and yards around the world now obsolete and boat anchors with no re-sale value?

I can't think of better press for Aero and the Melges 14.
 
Lasers will always have a good resale market. However, some may find they can no longer ask $4K for a 20 year old heavily used boat.
 
"... we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance."

Is this the "Doyle rig" then? Is there really an apparently unfriendly competition between LP and PSA/ILCA to get "contemporary" rigs on the market?

Many, many more questions than answers... :confused:

_

There is no benefit for the class to be arguing against each other. My guess is that ARC *might* be the series name for the C-Series. I hadn't heard any mention of it before @Horizon posted the LP comment
 
There is no benefit for the class to be arguing against each other. My guess is that ARC *might* be the series name for the C-Series. I hadn't heard any mention of it before @Horizon posted the LP comment

I communicated with the NA class office earlier today. The C-Rig is the ILCA rig which is being planned for "show and tell" during 2019 at area clubs with some decisions for next steps happening late 2019/early 2020. No one in the ILCA office has any idea what the "ARC" rig is that LP is referring to.
 
I communicated with the NA class office earlier today. The C-Rig is the ILCA rig which is being planned for "show and tell" during 2019 at area clubs with some decisions for next steps happening late 2019/early 2020. No one in the ILCA office has any idea what the "ARC" rig is that LP is referring to.
So the ARC is probably like the Rooster 8.1 - a mousetrap rig that is not class legal.
 
So the ARC is probably like the Rooster 8.1 - a mousetrap rig that is not class legal.

Think it's deeper than that: "we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance." Sounds like a "C-Rig" device to me.
 
It's obviously been a different story in different countries. Over here there was no Radial class before 2003, and the only Standard sailors to move to it were a small handful of Great Grand Masters. Everyone under 75 kg sailed Europes until then (and many still do).
But even in other scenarios, what I said earlier applies: the current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs.
Very different to us. We've had a growing radial fleet from its inception. Having Jacqui Ellis win the first Women's Radial Worlds in 1988 helped as most of the other females rapidly switched to the new rig, as did the smaller guys. Additionally switching to the radial for the male youths pushed more into them. The third factor was the standard rig becoming an Olympic Class, our club sailors were no longer competitive at regattas with all the overseas people flying in for our summer regattas particularly in the lead up to the Sydney Olympics . By the early 2000's the radial fleet was bigger than our standard fleet.
 
Think it's deeper than that: "we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance." Sounds like a "C-Rig" device to me.
But why mention the Laser radial at all then? Everyone knows that the Radial and Standard share the same hull.
 
Think it's deeper than that: "we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance." Sounds like a "C-Rig" device to me.
It seems to me that we will have two modifications:
The C5 rig will be sold by Performance Sailing Australia and appears to be targeting lighter weight sailors. Other C rigs may be in the pipeline.
The still mysterious ARC rig(s) will be sold by Laser Performance, but it isn't clear whether they will be competing with the MkII or the Radial rig.
I am speculating, but I think that neither the C5 nor the ARC rig will be legalized for (true) Laser racing any time soon. Perhaps at some point in time an effort will be made by PSA to legalize the C5 as a Laser, but LP will fight tooth-and-nail to prevent that. And the reverse for the ARC rig(s).
More in general, I also think that both companies are trying to come up with an (RS) Aero competitor, but let's face it, the Aero is at least one leg ahead in the race among newer 14-ft dinghies.


Considering that there are some 100,000 Lasers that are still sailing (my guess), I have no intention of selling mine. But if I had more space, money and time, the Aero would be on my wish list.
 
More interesting snippets... this is what the head of PSA says in the same Laser Training Cabarete Facebook thread that beldar linked to:


18486433_10211997860595413_4994131732569261170_n.jpg

Robert McMillan Chris Caldecoat ??

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Chris Caldecoat Robert McMillan a waste of time, it does not work. Just shows you how well the Laser world works together. C5 was shown at WS meeting with introduction plan imminent.

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Chris Caldecoat Sorry I should say that this type of concept was exhausted years ago, we went to a different style rig, the larger sails on the new C rigs works efficiently with the same crew weights. The plan if we can agree is to work upward from the bottom with introduction. We did review this rig and how it performed with the European Láser reps this week.

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Chris Caldecoat We gotta sort the open market issue out first, that should be laughable. The positive on that is the general feeling was that all IP owners across all classes seemed to think it possible. Interesting times.

Sea trails against 50 year old boat, could be a bit embarrassing for the new boats if we are any where near them in the Sea Trials.

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To summarize, taking into account the information in posts #19 - 21 above: the "ARC" (or "Doyle") rig will come in two sizes with weight ranges corresponding to the current Standard and Radial, and is totally an LP thing, without any ILCA or WS support. The "C" rigs are in turn supported by everyone else, will be seen at the trials, and are even expected to make the Laser reasonably competitive against the other contenders.

_
 
More interesting snippets... this is what the head of PSA says in the same Laser Training Cabarete Facebook thread that beldar linked to:


18486433_10211997860595413_4994131732569261170_n.jpg

Robert McMillan Chris Caldecoat ??


10 vk

644648_10151262448744636_1715522943_n.jpg

Chris Caldecoat Robert McMillan a waste of time, it does not work. Just shows you how well the Laser world works together. C5 was shown at WS meeting with introduction plan imminent.


10 vk · Muokattu

644648_10151262448744636_1715522943_n.jpg

Chris Caldecoat Sorry I should say that this type of concept was exhausted years ago, we went to a different style rig, the larger sails on the new C rigs works efficiently with the same crew weights. The plan if we can agree is to work upward from the bottom with introduction. We did review this rig and how it performed with the European Láser reps this week.


10 vk · Muokattu

644648_10151262448744636_1715522943_n.jpg

Chris Caldecoat We gotta sort the open market issue out first, that should be laughable. The positive on that is the general feeling was that all IP owners across all classes seemed to think it possible. Interesting times.


Sea trails against 50 year old boat, could be a bit embarrassing for the new boats if we are any where near them in the Sea Trials.

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To summarize, taking into account the information in posts #19 - 21 above: the "ARC" (or "Doyle") rig will come in two sizes with weight ranges corresponding to the current Standard and Radial, and is totally an LP thing, without any ILCA or WS support. The "C" rigs are in turn supported by everyone else, will be seen at the trials, and are even expected to make the Laser reasonably competitive against the other contenders.

_

A lot of different information floating around out there. I was told from the NA class office the word from Andy Roy and Tracey Usher was we're sticking with the current full and radial rigs for the Olympic trials. We all KNOW there is no way LP will support a rig they are not driving the manufacturing and sales on. This is setting up to be a dumpster fire....
 
The ALCA AGM minutes has brought some more interesting snippets to the table...
http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018_19_ALCA_AGM_2019_Minutes_V3_With_Reports.pdf

"Prototype C5 Laser – Ken Hurling and Chris Caldecoat gave the following update;
The C5 prototype which had a demonstration sail at Devonport last week is best described by the ILCA video at
.
ILCA has agreed to soft launch the C5 in Oceania and Asia.
Some issues with the demonstration prototypes have been identified and are being fixed.
A small production run of the new rigs will be distributed for demonstration in Japan and some Australian Districts in the first half of 2019.
While, as ILCA President Tracy Usher has said, change to the Laser rig is inevitable and the C5 may show the way there is no plan to rapidly update the current Radial or Standard rig Laser."
 
They've also confirmed that the composite bottom section for the radial is coming as well. To me, thats a clear indication it will be around for a while longer - but Usher's Statement above contradicts what PSA have done. :-0
 
Thanks LaLi. To avoid future hysteria I would encourage everyone to reach out to your class leadership, (me included!) when something screwy hits the internet. I communicated with the NA class office and then directly with the NA and ILCA presidents a few days ago and got the scoop. They let me know an official ILCA notice was coming. I don't think it's fair that we all jump on these guys when something goes down, but ask your district secretary to get an official word. The positive thing about the hysteria to me is it shows people still care! While this has been comforting I'm still leery of LP. Those guys can do some left field stuff sometimes, but hopefully that won't happen here.
 
I'm glad to see some communication from the class regarding the matter.

As for the sea trials for the Olympics, obviously they are moving ahead with the existing rigs. However, I think pulling back the curtains on these new rigs in advance of the sea trials is deliberate. It's saying here is where we are now, but this is our vision of the future. Stick with us through 2024, and we can deliver something more advanced in 2028 which preserves much of the existing class and builder infrastructure.

How will this play out or benefit non-Olympian sailors? I think that remains to be seen.
 

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