Sunfish newbie Questions repair/upgrade

[sancarlosmexico]

Hello everyone. First of all, I wanted to give thanks that this forum exists. I hope to become a long term member and look forward to learning from everyone on board.

This is my 1st post. I purchased my first Sunfish last week at a great deal and the next day I decided to take her for a spin. I had a great time but I need to make a repair and I also believe it would be good to upgrade a few things. I live on the Sea of Cortes across from Baja California Mexico in the state of Sonora so most of my sailing will be on the ocean. The sea is pretty calm but if I ever expect to get anywhere, I assume I´ll be heading out on windy days which means the water will more than likely be choppy with tides coming and going, etc. After some days of thought, I seem to feel that I will need to become very proficient or else I may be in for some trouble.

Since I have an older model (1976 Bicentennial Edition?) I´ve noticed that my hardware is pretty basic. No cleats or ratchet pulleys or anything like that. I only have a simple hook that is circled below. I´ve been reading all over the internet and there seems to be an assortment of hardware that varying Sunfish/Lasers use. What do you think is best for my application? I would like to be realistic with my budget since its a new hobby. Ideally, I would like to maybe travel to the next town which is about 20km one way. This is a long term goal so I´ll initially just practice around the beach here.

As for the repair portion, the tie down at the rear of the Sunfish broke loose. I had the rear end of my sail swiveling back and forth on the rope at that end and before I knew it, the tie down was completely off. At that time, I noticed my sail opened up further and actually worked much better but I was lucky to have a partner helping me while I steered. My question, Should I try to bolt this tie downs in? Or do I need to fiberglass the holes and re-tap them? Is this common?

Thanks in advance. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cordially,

Marco

 

[Mashmaster]

Welcome. For the problem in back. The cable is called the bridle and the loop that attaches to the end of the trailer is screwed into wood directly under the deck. If the wood is still there you can re-attach the loop with longer screws with marine sealant around the screw holes. If the wood isn't there, you will have to put in an inspection port on the rear deck to access under the deck to put in a new backer board to hold the screws. I had to do this on my sunfish and it wasn't that hard.

There are a lot of experts here that can probably offer better advice than mine.

 

[Dickhogg]

Welcome Marco! Your fish is the same age as mine and looks like it is in good condition. As Mashmaster said, there are a lot of experts here who will be abler to advise. I upgraded to a ratchet for the mainsheet and found things like this blog post of Tag's very useful:

sunfish mainsheet controls upgrade

 

[L&VW]

Lake sailing is definitely less challenging than OCEAN sailing! Presumably, this is a saltwater boat.

Probe the existing holes to see if there's some "substance" to the wood below the eye strap's screw holes. The "budget" fix would be to drill new holes about 1cm inboard of the existing holes. Test by lifting the boat—use the bridle to lift, which will be testing the other eye-strap connection as well.

Inspect the bridle, especially at the connections. You may want to replace the bridle at the same time, but with a "two-loop", instead of a "three-loop". (Available at eBay).

.

 

[sancarlosmexico]

Welcome. For the problem in back. The cable is called the bridle and the loop that attaches to the end of the trailer is screwed into wood directly under the deck. If the wood is still there you can re-attach the loop with longer screws with marine sealant around the screw holes. If the wood isn't there, you will have to put in an inspection port on the rear deck to access under the deck to put in a new backer board to hold the screws. I had to do this on my sunfish and it wasn't that hard.

There are a lot of experts here that can probably offer better advice than mine.

Thank you Mashmaster. I´ve been reading the "how to" articles online on how to install an Inspection Port. I appreciate the advice and will be confirming if I need to go this route or if longer screws will work. Work to do!

 

[sancarlosmexico]

Welcome Marco! Your fish is the same age as mine and looks like it is in good condition. As Mashmaster said, there are a lot of experts here who will be abler to advise. I upgraded to a ratchet for the mainsheet and found things like this blog post of Tag's very useful:

sunfish mainsheet controls upgrade

Thanks Dickhogg! I took the time to read the blogs articles. Great information. I believe I now have a better understanding. Once I dig in and fix my rear bridle attachment rings, I´ll set a plan on upgrading my mainsheet ratchet/cleat hardware. I appreciate the direction.

 

[sancarlosmexico]

Lake sailing is definitely less challenging than OCEAN sailing! Presumably, this is a saltwater boat.

Probe the existing holes to see if there's some "substance" to the wood below the eye strap's screw holes. The "budget" fix would be to drill new holes about 1cm inboard of the existing holes. Test by lifting the boat—use the bridle to lift, which will be testing the other eye-strap connection as well.

Inspect the bridle, especially at the connections. You may want to replace the bridle at the same time, but with a "two-loop", instead of a "three-loop". (Available at eBay).

.

Hey there L&VW. I´m not sure I have a saltwater boat. What distinguishes them?
I do not quite understand the two-loop vs. three loop bridle replacement. Do you mind sharing an ebay link? I searched the term without any luck. I appreciate it.

 

[wjejr]

Hi sancarlosmexico . The "three loop" bridle has a loop in the middle to which you attach the mainsheet. That's the one you have judging from the picture. The "two loop" version does not have a loop in the middle. For the two loop version, you clip the mainsheet to the bridle. If your mainsheet doesn't have a clip, you can just tie a bowline to the bridal instead. Regardless the mainsheet can slide back and forth. Having the two loop version distributes the load to both sides of the boat. The three loop version has all of the strain on the windward eye.

If you're not racing, I would just use a piece of line. The length from one eye to the other should be 30 inches, I believe, but again if you're not racing the boat, what does it matter? I like the line because it is easy to attach, detach, cheap, and most importantly, it doesn't chew up the tiller nearly as bad as the wire one does.

Hope that helps.

 

[wjejr]

On the screws pulling out, I would use a coat hangar to see if the block is there. If it is, I would use epoxy with wood flour, "clean" fine sawdust will do, or some other adhesive thickener and fill the holes. Once cured you can drill new holes and then screw in the wood screws. Make sure that there are bottoms in the holes, as you don't want to be just pouring epoxy into the boat.

I would not cut a hole for an inspection port unless there was no other way of addressing the problem, or unless that inspection port serves some other purpose. I had to put an inspection port in my boat to get at the rudder plate, but I have always regretted the look of it. Some people don't mind that their boats look like Swiss cheese, but I do. It's a big job, but I still have the cutout from that port and will eventually fiberglass it back in.

Hope that helps.

 

[L&VW]

Hey there L&VW. I´m not sure I have a saltwater boat. What distinguishes them? I do not quite understand the two-loop vs. three loop bridle replacement. Do you mind sharing an ebay link? I searched the term without any luck. I appreciate it.

Unless carefully rinsed and stored, boats used in salt environments have subtle clues—all negative! Most relate to the metal parts.

Through saltwater corrosion, aluminum mast and spars can be pitted inside and out; oftentimes, the pitting can be detected by "daylight" seen through the part.

Brass parts can become heavily oxidized, although some will call this appearance a "patina". Any brass grommets of the sails should be tested by hand; sometimes, they will crumble—just from pressure from one's fingers. (Although aluminum grommets are no better; sometimes, they just "disappear").

Even the stainless steel cable of the bridle can corrode, most often at the swaged fittings.

The vast majority of bow handles are made of the cheapest metal in boating—zinc. Although the zinc is covered by a shiny chrome finish, any "ding" through the chrome becomes a target for corrosion.

Moments after a purchase, I had a corroded bow handle break into fragments.

To the above observations, do I have to add the following:
"Ask me how I know".

 

[sancarlosmexico]

On the screws pulling out, I would use a coat hangar to see if the block is there. If it is, I would use epoxy with wood flour, "clean" fine sawdust will do, or some other adhesive thickener and fill the holes. Once cured you can drill new holes and then screw in the wood screws. Make sure that there are bottoms in the holes, as you don't want to be just pouring epoxy into the boat.

I would not cut a hole for an inspection port unless there was no other way of addressing the problem, or unless that inspection port serves some other purpose. I had to put an inspection port in my boat to get at the rudder plate, but I have always regretted the look of it. Some people don't mind that their boats look like Swiss cheese, but I do. It's a big job, but I still have the cutout from that port and will eventually fiberglass it back in.

Hope that helps.

Wjejr, I appreciate these tips. Unfortunately, no bottom was found after inserting a probe in the holes. Coincidentally, the other side is also in the same condition. I´ve been thinking about my next move for a day or two now. I think an Inspection Port is my only alternative at this moment. Drilling holes inside or outside the current marks also will seem to be fruitless. Any other suggestions?

 

[sancarlosmexico]

Unless carefully rinsed and stored, boats used in salt environments have subtle clues—all negative! Most relate to the metal parts.
...............
To the above observations, do I have to add the following:
"Ask me how I know".

Hey there L&VW. Ok, I understand. I´m pretty lucky I guess. It must have seen saltwater use however the owner like myself must have been cautious to rinse with freshwater after every use. She seems to be in pretty good shape. No major corrosion. Thanks for sharing your experiences, I´ll be sure to keep up the maintenance.

 

[Mashmaster]

I would just add an inspection port in the center aft. I used mahogany boards as my backing for the new screws. Use a drywall hand saw to cut away foam to slide the boards in.

 

[sancarlosmexico]

I would just add an inspection port in the center aft. I used mahogany boards as my backing for the new screws. Use a drywall hand saw to cut away foam to slide the boards in.

Mashmaster, what are your thoughts on the Ronstan 5" Inspection Port? This seems to be a common size for the Sunfish. Seem about right?

 

[Mashmaster]

That is the exact one I would use.

 

[L&VW]

I would just add an inspection port in the center aft. I used mahogany boards as my backing for the new screws. Use a drywall hand saw to cut away foam to slide the boards in.

It's extra work, but member Mixmkr suggests cutting holes in the bottom. (Then repairing the holes).

There are fewer chances of leaks into the interior, strengthens the bottom, permits the use of bolts (no screws to pull out), leaves the original Styrofoam™ to support the deck, gives practice with epoxy repairs, all alterations are out of casual sight, and exchanges the purchase of a port into a kit of epoxy and fabric. (Which you'll need in the future).

.

 

[Webfoot1]

If you have to replace the wooden block I think it would be just as easy to
pop the deck. You need to remove the old block then clean up the underside
of the deck before gluing on a new one. You'll have a invisible repair without
trying to work through a inspection hole. It's a relativity easy process if you
are careful.

 

[sancarlosmexico]

If you have to replace the wooden block I think it would be just as easy to
pop the deck. You need to remove the old block then clean up the underside
of the deck before gluing on a new one. You'll have a invisible repair without
trying to work through a inspection hole. It's a relativity easy process if you
are careful.

Very interesting information I am receiving. I really appreciate all the great insight. Would you happen to have a link to a great how-to article?

 

[sancarlosmexico]

It's extra work, but member Mixmkr suggests cutting holes in the bottom. (Then repairing the holes).

There are fewer chances of leaks into the interior, strengthens the bottom, permits the use of bolts (no screws to pull out), leaves the original Styrofoam™ to support the deck, gives practice with epoxy repairs, all alterations are out of casual sight, and exchanges the purchase of a port into a kit of epoxy and fabric. (Which you'll need in the future).

.

I really like the idea of keeping the upper deck solid and intact. I live in a fishing town and we have a multitude of fiberglass panga boats that most fisherman use here locally. Sourcing materials and finding experienced fiberglass repair guys is pretty simple here. Not to mention fairly inexpensive. I tried to specifically search Mixmkr posts on here for a specific how-to explanation but he seems to have so many that I haven’t quite tracked down a good reading. Do you have time to find his specific related post? I really would like to read it so that I can make an informed decision vs. Popping the deck vs. Inspection Port. Since I’m just getting started on what I hope to become a life long hobby/sport, taking the time and getting the quality is of essence. My son is 3, daughter 10 and the ocean isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. I appreciate the tips, they are great. All of them.

 

[Webfoot1]

Not much too it really, put 'Sunfish Sailboat Foam Replacement' in You Tube. I
usually do it to fix a crunched bow. Some smart person on this forum solved
the large number of clamps needed by horizontally splitting small sections of
PVC pipe. Sunfish Forum has really helped figure out better ways of fixing these
things over the years. Some boats were sacrificed in the learning process at
the start.

 

[signal charlie]

Splitting a seam is detailed in our blog post titled Foam Repair.

Remove the trim by drilling out the rivets.

Tap trim off gently.

Find seam line and split with a stiff putty knife. Once you get going it kind of splits itself.

CAUTION! DO NOT SPLIT THE ENTIRE SEAM AT ONE TIME. It is very hard to get the hull and deck realigned if the entire seam is split. You can split the bow seam on both sides back to around the mast step, or the stern back to the aft edge of the cockpit, or one side at a time. There is really no need to split the seam next to the cockpit unless the seam itself needs to be repaired, as there is not enough flex in the narrow deck at that point to lift it and get a hand inside.

Gently raise the deck

This is extreme.

 

[signal charlie]

For the stern, there is no need to split any further forward than the aft edge of the cockpit.

A note about blocks, we recommend using a softer hardwood like cypress, because some of the hardwoods get brittle and split when fasteners go in. Most people have access to oak or mahogany, the blocks definitely need to have pilot holes and it is a good time to predrill them while the deck is open. Blocks are attached with epoxy or an adhesive like 3M 5200. Add the hanger strap to hold them in if you like, we usually don't. We also coat the blocks with epoxy to keep them sealed up a bit

Sand the inside of the seam, wear gloves and long sleeve shirt, be careful for sharp seam edges. Cut one inch wide strips of 4 oz fiberglass cloth to go into the new seam, about 4 feet long each, as it is hard to handle any strips longer than that.

Prop the seam open at intervals with paint sticks or popsicle sticks. Wet out the cloth with epoxy. We use thin epoxy to wet the cloth and put a thick bead of thickened epoxy along the hull flange, better to have too much epoxy at this stage than not enough. Make note of any other deck edge damage, torn out rivet holes, etc... and plan to repair those while the epoxy is mixed up.

Put more paint sticks along the deck and clamp every few inches. The sticks help distribute clamp pressure. The clamps need to hold the seam closed and that is all, no more pressure is needed like wood glue. There should be some epoxy squeeze out along the entire seam, a small bead, or a big blob. If not then there might not be enough epoxy in that one area, wipe some more into the seam. Take paper towels and wip away excess epoxy so that you don't have deal with it later. Let seam dry for 24 hours.

Look through the blogs for VIPER and HOOPS to get some ideas.

 

[signal charlie]

Once the seam is dry, take off clamps and sand the seam with 120 grit. Be careful for sharp fiberglass fibers.

Reinstall trim. Use aluminum rivets. Do not use stainless steel, they cause dissimilar metal corrosion and are near impossible to remove.

We'd like to pass along thanks to Alan G, Howie, Wayne, Yahoo Sunfish_Sailor Group and this Forum for all of the crowd sourced knowledge shared through the years, Alan especially, we talked his ear off with question after question after question. There are a lot of happy Sunfish out there with happy Skippers as a result.

Go sailing.

Skipper and HOOPS.

MERCI.

VIPER.

(image: DOZER's friend)

 

[mixmkr]

Here's the old thread cutting thru the bottom w/pics...
New Backing Plates

 

[Mashmaster]

I personally think it is easy and like the ability to get a towel inside the hull to dry it out if necessary. So I would do an inspection port versus cutting the holes in the bottom of the hull.

 

[mixmkr]

I personally think it is easy and like the ability to get a towel inside the hull to dry it out if necessary. So I would do an inspection port versus cutting the holes in the bottom of the hull.

Actually I have ports in both the front and back walls of my 69 Sunfish cockpit, for storage and ventilation...and the small amount of water that seems to sneak it's way in. I think the ports actually may leak hemselves, since I screw them in hand tight (so I can easily unscrew them) and sometimes half of the round cover may be under water if I'm really shipping in some water in wild conditions. That keeps the deck clear, since I prefer not having them on deck and actually what I have is in better locations for my use. Plus of course the alum plates are behind all the hardware too. I've been doing gelcoat and fiberglass repairs professionally for soon time now, and have the ability to make the repairs basically "invisiable". The holes from my old style rudder and various spider cracking...youd never know they existed. The bottom I'm not too concerned with as it gets some abuse beaching, etc. So I grab the "white" gelcoat of the day.

 

[Mashmaster]

Actually I have ports in both the front and back walls of my 69 Sunfish cockpit, for storage and ventilation...and the small amount of water that seems to sneak it's way in. I think the ports actually may leak hemselves, since I screw them in hand tight (so I can easily unscrew them) and sometimes half of the round cover may be under water if I'm really shipping in some water in wild conditions. That keeps the deck clear, since I prefer not having them on deck and actually what I have is in better locations for my use. Plus of course the alum plates are behind all the hardware too. I've been doing gelcoat and fiberglass repairs professionally for soon time now, and have the ability to make the repairs basically "invisiable". The holes from my old style rudder and various spider cracking...youd never know they existed. The bottom I'm not too concerned with as it gets some abuse beaching, etc. So I grab the "white" gelcoat of the day.

Makes sense, I am not very practiced in fiberglass and gelcoat repairs. So I am learning from hear and youtube. I would love a master to teach me in person some day

 

[mixmkr]

The hard part is the color match...so many variations of white, especially noticed when side by side. Do a repair to an "edge or corner" if possible...usually not!! Close your eyes and run your hand over the repair before gelcoat. If you can feel it...even the slightest, it's not faired enoigh. Granted we are talking high end repair quality. Like most processes, experiece and learning from mistakes, you'll get better and better. That's why using boats to learn and experiment on like the Sunfish are fantastic. Your $350,000 shiney, dark pigmented, custom color, Colbalt may not!

 

[andyatos]

The hard part is the color match...so many variations of white, especially noticed when side by side.

Boy, isn't THAT ever the truth. Below is a photo of the side of my Laser with just under 40 color swatches of pure white gelcoat that I have painstakingly mixed gradually with yellow, then brown, then black pigment. The pure white, non pigmented gelcoat that came out of the can is the far bottom right swatch with the red arrow pointing at it.

On the upper left... where it doesn't look like there are any swatches at all... is where I did the final few color swatches before picking the winner; the one I couldn't see at all until I got inches away from it. These 40 some swatches represent about 1.5 hours of careful pigment mixing work. My first time trying to match gelcoat color.

Things I learned include:

- Do your swatch mixing on a fully cloudy day and with just one light source. Just the sun for example. Not inside with light bulb light with sunlight scattering inside through a window. I did it during a fogged in morning. If you try to do it in full sunlight, the brightness will wash out your subtle color differences and you won't be able to see the best match.

- Use a small paint brush and when you put a swatch on, brush it out along all the edges so you get rid of the shadows and the reflective gloss that comes with a fresh application of the gelcoat (ie, the wet gelcoat is too shiny and you can't match what's on the boat). Only when you've gotten rid of the shadows and the bright gloss can you see if your most recent try is close to invisible.

- Unless your boat is brand new, sand the area you are going to put your swatches on with 1500 grit wet sand paper. Then buff it out so it's almost shiny. An oxidized gelcoat surface on your boat isn't the color you want to match. You want the original color just under that oxidized surface. My original gelcoat color under my oxidized surface was way lighter in color.

You can see the dark green bow area (polyester resin) repair that is ready for gelcoat when I get the right matching color. When I showed the guys the finished project at the boat ramp before we went sailing, they couldn't tell where the repair was or where my feathering of the new gelcoat transitioned into the original gelcoat. My boat was a very light tan color, year 1987.

- Andy

 

[mixmkr]

And after all that, your 2019 gelcoat may change color differently than your 1987, as time passes...meaning you might see the repair from 10 feet away, next year....or not. And the other side of the boat may have aged differently too, etc, etc...

 

[wjejr]

Wjejr, I appreciate these tips. Unfortunately, no bottom was found after inserting a probe in the holes. Coincidentally, the other side is also in the same condition. I´ve been thinking about my next move for a day or two now. I think an Inspection Port is my only alternative at this moment. Drilling holes inside or outside the current marks also will seem to be fruitless. Any other suggestions?

Reading the comments written by other forum members, I would go the split seam method rather than the cutting a port in the rear deck. If you cut the port in the middle of the back deck, you are still going to have to dig through the foam block, blocks if you are doing both sides, before you can get to where the traveler attaches (see the video that signal Charlie posted), and that's going to be a mess.

I don't agree that having a rear port is particularly useful for getting water out of the boat. The Sunfish has a lot of rocker, and unless the bow is way higher than the stern, the water won't drain there. I do have a port in front of the centerboard, and I always sponge out the small amount of water from there. I have never used the rear port for anything other than the original rudder repair several years ago. If I had that much water in boat, I would use a syphon to drain it from the forward port. I can see that having a rear port in combination with a port in front of the centerboard would be useful for drying out the boat if the foam was waterlogged and the boat was overweight, but you didn't mention your boat suffered from that malady.

Good luck!

 

[andyatos]

And after all that, your 2019 gelcoat may change color differently than your 1987, as time passes...meaning you might see the repair from 10 feet away, next year....or not.

Right! So, if that happens what do we mere mortals do about that?

- Andy

 

[norcalsail]

Right! So, if that happens what do we mere mortals do about that?

- Andy

I saw a nice "Laser" sticker that would look great on your boat Andy. One for each side of the bow...at least it would distract!

 

[mixmkr]

Right! So, if that happens what do we mere mortals do about that?

- Andy

Stand 20 ft away???

 

[TexomaPowerboater]

They make a stainless steel plate backed fastener that allows you to insert the backing into the hole and screw into it with a bolt without having to get behind the fiberglass. FASCO FASTENER Stainless Steel Togglers | West Marine It's called a stainless steel toggler. Turn the plate down, slide into the hold, slide plastic washer down, cut off excess plastic, and screw in bolt. I've used these for seating on the deck of fiberglass boat. They are strong and doesn't matter if there is wood backing or not.

 

[L&VW]

They make a stainless steel plate backed fastener that allows you to insert the backing into the hole and screw into it with a bolt without having to get behind the fiberglass. FASCO FASTENER Stainless Steel Togglers | West Marine It's called a stainless steel toggler. Turn the plate down, slide into the hold, slide plastic washer down, cut off excess plastic, and screw in bolt. I've used these for seating on the deck of fiberglass boat. They are strong and doesn't matter if there is wood backing or not.

I've purchased those, but never paid those prices! Yikes...