Sunfish blasphemy question

I beg to differ this one point. I'm not just railing from the back of the room.
I understand that now, with the explanation of your campaign. I wish you had lead off with it.



What is important to remember is that the Sunfish world is very much dependent on the circle of life. The survival of the organized support structure that comes from the class depends on enthusiastic and dedicated people joining the class, and the generosity of the manufacturer. So, like so many things in life, it is important to pass on the gifts you receive. After you learn to love the sport and racing, get involved. Join the class, spread the word and support the manufacturer that supports us.
Derek,

Thank you for your most insightful and informative explanation about the juxtaposition of boat builder, Sunfish Class, and sail evolution. Your entries here would make a very good addendum in Class Office reproductions of The Sunfish Bible.

. . . in light of your clarifications, I will reign in my tongue-in-cheek sarcasm on the subject(s).


Wayne
 
Dear 254x,

Ah, yes, it would have been helpful to know you're looking to join in as well. I'm not picking on you, just stating a framing thought.

You see, depending on your location, we may be able to find willing Sunfish sailors who would happily come for a visit and help your group get up to speed.

Yes, not everyone will want to $hell out the ca$h and fully upgrade. That's OK. But, for those who want to race and travel, it's best to get the equipment that will make them "equal" for their own sakes.

Keep in mind, a new Sunfish retails for $4,125, plus $300 or so for a dolly. So, a used boat for $800-$1200 + $750 or so for the upgrade parts is still a STEAL! Much the same as buying an old Tartan 10 for $12,000, buying new sails vs. buying a tricked out new LS10 at $80,000 ...

Great sailors like Rich Chapman, Chip Clifton, Bob Findlay and others still swear by the older style hull and search them out for racing.

Do come join in on the fun! I need to "disclose" as well, that I'm the US Class Secretary, and I'd sure appreciate it if you'd email me (see http://www.sunfishclass.org/archives/2008/2008-2009-ussca-officers.pdf to get my email address ...).

And, depending on your location, I'll even volunteer to come on by! Really, the group is not venom infestested. We're just very interested in keeping the playing field even and the cost controllable. You've picked a great singlehanded boat that a wide variety of physiques can enjoy sailing and racing. Two young kids can doublehand it together. Once a kid is 85 pounds, he/she can right it alone and is ready to sail singlehanded.

Should your group get to the point where it has 5 people who have joined the Class, do apply to the Class Office for "official" fleet status. That will make your group more visible which could help you attract more sailors.

Let us know how else we can help.
 
Interesting idea to open a league of racing for Sunfish sans racing parts, or develop the handicap system...:eek:!!

What if they did what they do in other sports where equipment matters (i.e. - cycling), and have an "open division?" By "open division," meaning people can modify their Sunfish any way they want (so long as its safe) and race 'em. Though straying away from the "one-design" concept, it does open doors for many guys (and gals) who like to tinker and be engineers. (I have a bad feeling, though, that those marine and aeronautical engineers would dominate...):D

Would be fun to see what people come up with, and hey, maybe even get their ideas developed into standard components. The best way to make progress is to put more minds together, and this method would do it.

Just another idea, ;).
 
If you had a open development Sunfish class it would slowly transform the Sunfish into what the development Moth Class looks like. In the end you would have a all Carbon Fiber Hydrofoil Sunfish that is highly technical and in no way resembles a Sunfish. Could you limit 'Tech Creep' to keep is simple and fun? Maybe. As explained earlier in the thread, a 'Classic Sunfish' class was tried but everyone kept showing up with different 'Classic Hardware, (Centerboards). I think the handicapped 'Fun Sail Race' it the best thing for low cost fun.
 
Interesting idea to open a league of racing for Sunfish sans racing parts, or develop the handicap system...:eek:!!
Open regattas between boats of different designs have been run under the Portsmouth Yardstick handicap system for a long time.

The Sunfish basic handicap is 99.6


What if they did what they do in other sports where equipment matters (i.e. - cycling), and have an "open division?" By "open division," meaning people can modify their Sunfish any way they want (so long as its safe) and race 'em. Though straying away from the "one-design" concept, it does open doors for many guys (and gals) who like to tinker and be engineers. (I have a bad feeling, though, that those marine and aeronautical engineers would dominate...):D
One Design, whatever the mechanized competition, focuses on the human element and their skill level. Adding starter level equipment and developing skill based category levels has been suggested before. Even simply having a "Legacy" or "Classic" sub-class for pre-'72 generation Sunfish comes up every year.

What it sounds like you're proposing is a competition between the "machines", engaging deep pockets and technology..., robot wars goes sailing.

There has been a small faction interested in this sort of sailing. Their design talents and money usually get applied to endeavors like speed records. Go Fur It ...



A handicap system that adjusts for everyday sailor level modifications and tactics is called a "beer run" and has also been around for a long time. This would be your "open" or "citizen" cycling class.

base price: $16,995.00
Torrensen Marne - 2010


What's in your wallet?
whatsinyourwallet.jpg

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;)
 
From what I understand after several conversations with people at the factory, their feeling is that the class is so small that they can't make money on the boat and especially its aftermarket sales unless they control the supply, and if they can't make money on the boat, they would have to shift their attention to those boats that make more money for them, like the Laser or the Opti. They make the hulls themselves, but they outsource the spars, sails and blades. Their production runs are very small, on the order of a few hundred or a few thousand units annually, so they can't take advantage of volume discounts, especially for replacement parts. Unlike the Laser, 420, etc, LP owns the patents for the Sunfish and every custom part on it, so nobody else can make the Sunfish specific parts, like the rudder connections or the hull, without their permission, and nobody can take over the manufacturing of the boat without a licence from them.

It's kind of the price we pay for them to continue making the boat and its parts.
 
I raced Sunfish in the 60s and early 1970's when they were really a one design class and am a former Junior National Champ (1972). I was looking into getting back into Sunfish racing but am very discouraged to find that now it is no longer a one design class because the daggerboard shape has been changed, the rudder is different, new hulls are lighter, racing sails are a total rip off and cut differently. Why do classes allow changes that make all old boats uncompeditive and kill the class by only attracting new boat owners to the startline? $500 for a new daggerboard? $450 for a new sail with no battens? These prices are outrageous and at least double what they should be. With true one design all boat owners could come and race and be on an equal playing field. Too bad to see the Sunfish class so destroyed by medling. Sad that corporate greed and gear spec changes have killed one design racing in so many sailboat racing clsasses. It seems to me that when you have a good thing you should leave it alone and concentrate on producing boats that are exactly the same at the lowest price point so that you attract as many sailors to the line as possible.
 
Although it would take a while to read the whole of the above thread, if you do you will find that with the Sunfish the builder controls most of the issues you mention. And BTW the plastic rudder does not provide an advantage vs wood. I will say a big plus is you can now buy a boat out of the box and be competitive. “Back in the day” the perception was you needed to fiberglass and West-epoxy your board to make it competitive, and hang your sail in the garage with sand bags in it to add draft. All that is fortunately gone. On the bad news front, the current builder, Laser Performance, charges insane prices for parts, is usually out of stock, and occasionally takes a hiatus from making boats, and once tried to take over the class association for unknown reasons. They also actively seem to hate the Laser class, so we have not been singled out for punishment.

Thats said, you can find plenty of quality used boats and parts at reasonable prices, fork over for a new sail and be good to go.
 
Most clubs will allow non-legal parts on a fish for their racing.
My Vanguard Sunfish with the rolled edges really is nicer than my prior Sunfish. I once cut up my leg pretty badly on a rivet that had come loose on my old boat and the hiking is more comfortable on my newer fish.

As an aside, the same debate has been 'raging' among Laser sailors. Did you price the composite 'upper' mast?
 
The reality is that most local club racing that doesn't have trophys is done with a mix of North and Intensity race sails. In fact I have been to a few clubs where the Intensity race sail is the "normal" sail. Neither has any advantage except the Intensity being a $150 race sail that lasts 5 years or more. I know it's tradition on the internet to claim the cheap sail is not as good. My experience is the my $150 sail is 3 years old and raced often. I was sailing in 22 mph winds with gusts to 30 mph two days ago. My sail is still fine and it's not the first nor the last time I've sailed in 20+ mph winds. I'm hopelessly addicted to the feel of a Sunfish up on a plane with the hull humming like a jet engine.
In many sports there is a valid argument for supporting the builder who supports the participants. With the total lack of anything from Laser Performance in the Sunfish class and the fiasco that has been the Laser class, you really can't expect sympathy for class legal price gouging.
 
While the Sunfish Class has its growth initiatives what other Class is cheaper to get into, has thousands of decent used hulls available and has a functional Class Association?

What vibrant Class Associations are truly "one design?" Zero changes? Boat number 1 is the exact same as the latest boat built?

It seems that there are a lot of competitive older boats out there and lots of gently used racing parts.

If things were left alone we'd be starting the next race with our 1953 boat ZIP, she's the closest to "Class Legal" that we have, needs a 2 loop bridle.

Audrey Jack zip.jpg


The late 1960s boats would be the most pure Class Legal Sunfish out there, back from when the Class formed. Old style rudder. Paint stick tiller extension. Spoon tip daggerboard. No bungee or Jens rig. DePersia bailer. No cuddy. 139 pounds. Sheet hook. 5 panel sail. Maybe there should be a "Classics" division or boats get handicapped based on their year of manufacture.

I could be wrong, and I am a lot, but the new Sunfish has to be the cheapest Class Legal boat out there at $4923.40 USD. In stock.
 

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