Class Politics Stuff it Kirby!!

Are you one of the 122 or the 1017?


  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
The only issue I have ever had with measurement at Laser regattas is when the measurer at the Hayling Island Masters Worlds rejected a set of battens that had previously been measured and declared legal and initialed by the measurer at a previous Masters Worlds (which I won't name in order not to embarrass anyone who might be on this forum.) Do battens expand in colder weather? Or with age? Or is it possible that our esteemed international measurers don't always apply consistent standards?

Nothing personal against any particular measurers. My motto is, "The measurer is always right even if he's wrong." And, "Never argue with a measurer bearing a steel ruler."
 
When I constructed my measurement equipment, I have always tried to make it from the same material as the piece of equipment being measured. For battens that means fibreglass batten material, for spars it aluminium jigs etc. When constructed the measurement makes were made at 25 deg C. using engineering grade measurement equipment, so that expansion with temperature is accounted for. In addition the jigs were designed to remove as much error as possible. User error can always (and does) occur, it should be relatively easy to be consistent in measuring. Jean-Luc was very impressed with my batten jigs and took a couple of sets home with him after Terrigal. Yes, I come from a science / engineering background.

But I've always suspected that the batten ends move with old age, because I've heard the complaint so often that the battens measured at the last regatta.

Two or 3 mm of batten isn't going to make or break your chances at a regatta, so before these new battens were made available, I've just automatically trimmed my battens down to being 598 & 398mm respectively, when I picked up a new boat and never had an issue with battens during measurement. I'd rather fix things up when I have the time and the materials available, than when I'm trying to pass through measurement. Having things right beforehand makes the whole measurement thing quicker for everyone.
 
But I've always suspected that the batten ends move with old age, because I've heard the complaint so often that the battens measured at the last regatta.

Hmmm. Maybe batten ends do move with old age! I hadn't thought of that. It would explain why my battens were too long after a previous measurer had approved them a few years before. Thanks for the tip Alan. Next time I will measure my own battens before any regatta with measurement and cut them down if necessary.
 
Strict mesurment of battens is absurd. The lengths of the sewn pockets vary and the elastic is too weak to hold the battens out against the back edge of teh sail.

the ONLY proper measurement for a Laser batten is that it can be forced into a non modified class legal sail.

CVetainly our $700 class legal sail come with batten pockets which are 100% identical.

Certainly the battens are meant to be tight against the back of the pocket.

Certainly we all know the elastic in the sails is not designed to hold heh battens against the end of the pocket.

Certainly we all know the official elastic is too weak to do much of anything with respect to holding battens in place.

Certainly we know the purpose of the elastic is to slide next to the batten , pull the tip off , and store it there so sailors can later amuse themselves by atempting to remove that plastic tip without inparting too much damage on the day old and already stretched and thoroughly misshapen sail.

As measurement of laser battens would imply sailors might wish to use a different length batten than the one which perfectly fits properly in one of the perfectly and consistently constructed official laser Class approved sails, it must follow that anyone who measures battens is breaking the fundamental rule of laser sailing by helping sailors use somthing other than the 1005 identical equipment supplied by the official laser builders.
 
All sarcasm aside, I do have some sympathy with the view that if you have a batten made by an approved Laser builder and a sail made by an approved Laser builder and the batten fits in the sail, then such equipment should be legal. If our rules are so pernickety that they are forcing measurers to build rigs from the same materials as the equipment being measured in order to eliminate errors due to thermal expansion... then I do think we have lost sight of the big picture.

It's a game. We approve certain companies to build the toys we use to play our game. If those companies are not building the toys right, then show them how to build the toys right. Or find another company that will build the toys right.
 
Hi,

I looked at "LaserPerformance Sailboats" (Europe's-)Facebook website, today ...

and found a question, FB member "Matthew B. ..." last Tuesday (Nov. 23th 2011) asked to LP:

{Begin of the original quotation of FB}

"is performance sailcraft still making the laser or is it all going back to Bruce and companys being distributors".

{End of the original quotation of FB)

"LP" gave a sort of an official answer ... :

{Begin of the original quotation of FB}

"Bruce Kirby has always been and remains the designer of the Laser. The original manufacturer was Ian Bruce and Performance Sailcraft. Today the manufacturers and trademark holders are LaserPerformance, Performance Sailcraft Australia and Performance Sailcraft Japan."

{End of the original quotation of FB)

... and now, as this is said "into stone" (or better: "into fibreglass and gelcoat and ILCA's silver stickers"),

may I now should continue into the believe:

"Earth still is a sheave" ... ? :p

Ciao
LooserLu, GER

(directly to:
- Mr. Wesley W. Whitmeyer, Jr. of St. Onge Steward Johnson & Reens, LLC: I 'm not afraid of YOU (and your here secretly viewing staff)... never!! Greetings of
Europe, hahaha!!
-
Tracy: thanks you accompany us. I encourage you to do this in future, especially for this issue.)
 
So, here we are, a month and a day from when the ILCA said:
Therefore we will seek the approval of ISAF within the next few days as required by the ILCA Class Rules, part five article 30(d).
Jeff Martin Heini Wellmann
Executive Secretary ILCA President ILCA
October 28th 2011

And no word back from ISAF if they will approve the change or not (or the ILCA isn't telling us what ISAF said).
In the meantime, class sails are again becoming harder to come by, for the same reasons as before...
 
So, here we are, a month and a day from when the ILCA said:
Therefore we will seek the approval of ISAF within the next few days as required by the ILCA Class Rules, part five article 30(d).
Jeff MartinHeini Wellmann
Executive Secretary ILCA President ILCA
October 28th 2011

And no word back from ISAF if they will approve the change or not (or the ILCA isn't telling us what ISAF said).
In the meantime, class sails are again becoming harder to come by, for the same reasons as before...

And no word either on what happened at the ILCA Word Council on Nov 5/6.

I just sent off my check to renew my membership of ILCA for one more year. I hope I didn't make a bad investment?
 
Still no new ? I would have expected some word fro the leadership to the membership - just to let them know what is going on. Sort of polite given that they are there elected by and thus acting on behalf of the membership.
 
Shiitake%20Mushroom%20Tree%20Shii.png
 
I was going to point out to Deimos that mushrooms are now in the really dark winter season in the Northern hemisphere, but 49208 already made that point in a nicer way.
 
So, after reading Heini's update, I'm a bit unclear on the status of the boats produced by LP ? IIRC, you need the ISAF plaque to certify the boat as being a class legal Laser, is LP still being issued plaques ?
 
So, after reading Heini's update, I'm a bit unclear on the status of the boats produced by LP ? IIRC, you need the ISAF plaque to certify the boat as being a class legal Laser, is LP still being issued plaques ?

I am more than a bit unclear after reading Heini's update. He says we can't "enact" the rule change but doesn't specifically say why. Is it because ISAF won't approve the change? Is the old rule still in force? If so, then any builder that doesn't have an agreement with Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc. cannot build legal Lasers approved by the class. Does this mean that all boats now being built by LP Europe are no longer legal (plaque or no plaque)? Or don't we even know?

I thought this vote was supposed to save the Laser Class from being split three ways, but almost a year after the rule change was initially proposed, Heini still says the existence of the Laser Class is "threatened".
 
Doug Metchick was the global Exec director of LP. I don't profess to be a fortune teller, but when top execs leave and move what to me looks laterally, there is usually something to read between the lines.

Google might shed some light on who exactly owns LP
 
A man and his wife owned a very special goose. Every day the goose would lay a golden egg, which made the couple very rich.

"Just think," said the man's wife, "If we could have all the golden eggs that are inside the goose, we could be richer much faster."

"You're right," said her husband, "We wouldn't have to wait for the goose to lay her egg every day."

So, the couple killed the goose and cut her open, only to find that she was just like every other goose. She had no golden eggs inside of her at all, and they had no more golden eggs.


.......Aesop
 
Doubt it - It seems like it is more involved then just a disagreement. That just seems to be one of the results of a deeper problem for one of the builders..
 
Will the upcoming Olympics be sailed in boats that cannot be approved by the class as legal Lasers and Laser Radials?
 
Will the upcoming Olympics be sailed in boats that cannot be approved by the class as legal Lasers and Laser Radials?
Well that's situation normal actually. They generally don't have sail numbers or sail numbers that match the boat, generally they have just national letters at the last few Olympics. At the recent worlds in Perth, they only had 3 digit sail numbers.
0011111fa1560a14b93013.jpg
 
Going back because she thought she might have been OCS and then coming back to take second in the medal race and win the gold medal! Go Anna!
 
Going back because she thought she might have been OCS and then coming back to take second in the medal race and win the gold medal! Go Anna!

I'm confused. Anna Tunnicliff sailed an Elliott 6 at Perth this year. Paige Railey was the U.S. Radial sailor at Perth this year (got a bronze and qualified the US for the Olympics).
 
I'm confused. Anna Tunnicliff sailed an Elliott 6 at Perth this year. Paige Railey was the U.S. Radial sailor at Perth this year (got a bronze and qualified the US for the Olympics).

The pic above is the medal race from 2008 Oly.
 
...Google might shed some light on who exactly owns LP
Google don't help ... "Gavel Securities Ltd." (sits at the same adress like the main Laser Store at UK) still is "holding company" of LP Ltd..
Many rumours about this company (Gavel) are to hear, around there where I live.... At my reply at this thread ( http://sailingforums.com/threads/stuff-it-kirby.23286/page-4#post-110281 ) I forgot to add the final sentence of LP (from FB, at 2011 Nov 22th ) in their answer: "LaserPerformance certainly still makes Lasers!" Sorry, folks, but a "blank line" irritated me in "copy and paste" the quotation to TLF correct :0) !!!

@49208:
To your question about the plaques (your reply, here at No. #87": " ... is LP still being issued plaques "): I guess you remember: The ILCA gives the plaques to the builders. So, no plaques, given to the builders, means: no class legal boats! A in the moment really big anxiety we here at GER have, related to the 2012 Seniors (m/fm) Laser Worlds at Boltenhagen/GER, believe me ...!!

However, my deep hope is, we get enough new class legal hulls to offer to the 'pros' at the Worlds at Boltenhagen in 2012!
{I count on that, because, I try to buy one of those nealy new "charter"-hulls, aft that event!! "Santa C. " today told me: There is some hope for me to get one, if I save enough "€'s" :) :) The new (used) car to carry one of theose hulls home of Boltenhagen I already bought, last October! Yup, it's a 2005 Volvo V70 in really good conditions ('Merrily', 'drLaser', 'gouvernail' and 'Dr_Loser' are the "far away"-witnesses!!!)
... Paul Goodison and UK's "Pro Laser Team " would like that (Volvo is their main sponsor) }

Whereever you are and wherever you sail in the moment:

Have all a peaceful Christmas-Time {especially: B.K., H.W., C.K. (CEO of PSA), N.N.(CEO of LP) and N.N. (CEO of Gavel Sec.)}

For all of you: In attachment, in a .zip-file, I have added some lovely mp3 "X-Mas"-Songs of the here at GER famous band " Die Prinzen" (They have been members of the worldwide well known chorus "Thomaner Chor" of Leipzig, during they have been young)

Merry Christmas!!
LooserLu
(The only GER-Laserite that is ranked in the official GER-ranking-list for "Master (age 45-55)" at the Standards AND the Radials ... hihi)

{directly to:
- Mr. Wesley W. Whitmeyer, Jr. of St. Onge Steward Johnson & Reens, LLC: I 'm not afraid of YOU (and your here secretly viewing staff)... never!! Merry Christmas + Greetings of Europe, hahaha!!}
 

Attachments

  • Prinzen-GER-1999 - X-Mas Songs.zip
    10.4 MB · Views: 51
Not sure about Gavel and ownership, at least in North America - There seems to be some involvement by Maclaren, which is controlled by Farzad Rastegar - Might be that Dory Ventures where Doug Metchick and Bill Crane worked, perhaps they brought Farzad to the ownership table.
 
Not sure about Gavel and ownership, at least in North America - There seems to be some involvement by Maclaren, which is controlled by Farzad Rastegar - Might be that Dory Ventures where Doug Metchick and Bill Crane worked, perhaps they brought Farzad to the ownership table.

What? Lasers are now being built by a baby buggy company? That could explain a lot.
 
I think there are several very important questions the ILCA must answer now:

1. Why did they go to the expense and delay of a membership vote without first checking with the ISAF (e.g. costs of independent auditors, etc.)

2. Why did the ISAF say no (e.g. unpredictable impact or they don't agree with excluding the design rights holder or flawed voting procedures (e.g. changing wording part way through) or commercial disagreements are not the concern of the ILCA or inadequate information provided to membership or whatever other reason. They must have given reasons and it is only right that the membership are told those reasons.

3. Is the ISAF decision their "answer" or are they "thinking" or "waiting" ?

(probably other questions but above are those that strike me at the moment).
Why was the above (and probably other info) not provided to the membership at the same time as the ISAF "No" announcement. Do the leadership regard the membership as so irrelevant.

Ian
 
Some reference points to help guide idle speculation:
1) ISAF have simply not acted on the rule change, everything being said in this thread is pure speculation based on assumption.
2) Farzad Rastegar owns the companies that hold LP Europe and LP North America. From a working perspective, Bill Crane is Farzad's right hand man, I believe that he is technically employed by Dory Ventures. Doug Metchick was President of the top holding company but that position seems to have been something of a revolving door over the past decade, so not sure I would read anything into his moving to another company.
3) Farzad's companies owned PSE, now LP Europe for something like a decade, so he is not new to the scene. Bill Crane has worked for Farzad for a number of years, he is not new to the scene either (and its Bill's nephew Rob that is going to represent the US in the Olympics sailing a Laser).
4) The baby buggy company has been involved in sailing for a while now, most recently as Anna Tunnicliffe's sponsor, as well as sponsor of the Laser Slalom last summer. Interestingly, the sponsorship does not offer anything more than the name, no mention of what the company makes. Not sure what they get out of it.
5) Its time to go back to enjoying the holiday break by going sailing!
 
No sailing until Sunday around here .
Hope Farzad isn't left handed.. ;)
Interesting enough, the elder Cranes (brothers Jim and Bill) as well as Bruce Kirby all raced Sonars out of Noroton YC for years..It's always appeared to be a tightly knit YC.
IIRC Kirby made a statement on why he had favored Global Sailing over LP/Maclaren.

...........

...........
 
Some reference points to help guide idle speculation:
1) ISAF have simply not acted on the rule change, everything being said in this thread is pure speculation based on assumption.

There would be a lot less speculation based on assumption if the ILCA leadership could actually give out some information. They were repeatedly asked for it during the voting process and kept silent. They are now releasing the minimum. Maybe it is a cultural thing because in Europe we believe that organisations "for the membership" should be transparent. They should communicate with the membership (those who elect them and who they are meant to be acting on behalf of). I'm quitting the Class Association now because it is a joke. When you are told nothing except "Vote Yes and really urgently" it makes a farce of the concept of a Class Association. Maybe in the US it is normal to accept people in charge to treat their roles more akin to dictatorial, but over here we are more used to greater transparency, more information and some communication.

So are the rules staying as they are or do we expect the ISAF to do something or quite where do we stand now ? People seem unsure if Lasers are legal nothing definitive, no answers, no information - always the bare minimum.

I would suggest an open letter to the membership explaining in detail what is actually happening, with information, ideally finishing with the words "I hereby tender my ..." because I am so unimpressed with the way this has been handled it just beggars belief.
 
There would be a lot less speculation based on assumption if the ILCA leadership could actually give out some information. They were repeatedly asked for it during the voting process and kept silent. They are now releasing the minimum. Maybe it is a cultural thing because in Europe we believe that organisations "for the membership" should be transparent. They should communicate with the membership (those who elect them and who they are meant to be acting on behalf of). I'm quitting the Class Association now because it is a joke. When you are told nothing except "Vote Yes and really urgently" it makes a farce of the concept of a Class Association. Maybe in the US it is normal to accept people in charge to treat their roles more akin to dictatorial, but over here we are more used to greater transparency, more information and some communication.

So are the rules staying as they are or do we expect the ISAF to do something or quite where do we stand now ? People seem unsure if Lasers are legal nothing definitive, no answers, no information - always the bare minimum.

I would suggest an open letter to the membership explaining in detail what is actually happening, with information, ideally finishing with the words "I hereby tender my ..." because I am so unimpressed with the way this has been handled it just beggars belief.

+1...well said! (from a fellow UK sailor).

Just rig your boat and go for a sail now, the world will seem like a better place when you are done.
 

Back
Top