Class Politics Shaping an Intensity sail

Merrily

Administrator
I bought an Intensity Radial sail and am having trouble with it. In light to medium air, I can't get rid of the lump of cloth behind the luff that runs vertically on the entire height of the sail. I think this is a factor of the extra cloth weight and extra resin in the sail, making it stiffer, and I've seen it on a full sized Intensity sail, as well. Normally, one could adjust the outhaul to pull this "lump" out, but it doesn't work with this sail. The mast sleeve is also wider than on my legal sail and I don't know if this is a factor in the sloppiness of the sail. Can anyone who has an Intensity sail guide me? Is there a way to flatten this sail?
 
I bought an Intensity Radial sail and am having trouble with it. In light to medium air, I can't get rid of the lump of cloth behind the luff that runs vertically on the entire height of the sail. I think this is a factor of the extra cloth weight and extra resin in the sail, making it stiffer, and I've seen it on a full sized Intensity sail, as well. Normally, one could adjust the outhaul to pull this "lump" out, but it doesn't work with this sail. The mast sleeve is also wider than on my legal sail and I don't know if this is a factor in the sloppiness of the sail. Can anyone who has an Intensity sail guide me? Is there a way to flatten this sail?

I actually have the same problem with my new Laser standard sail (manufacturer supplied) in light airs - so it may not be an Intensity only thing.


Ian
 
I actually have the same problem with my new Laser standard sail (manufacturer supplied) in light airs - so it may not be an Intensity only thing.


Ian

It's not the same wrinkle as described in the Ah the Wrinkle thread. It's totally vertical. It doesn't go from where the mast pieces join. It goes from the head of the sail right behind the mast sleeve, runs the entire length of the mast, to the tack.

Yes, I've also had this same vertical wrinkle on a legal sail, but you can get rid of it by playing with the sail controls. I can't get the Intensity wrinkle to go away.
 
It's not the same wrinkle as described in the Ah the Wrinkle thread. It's totally vertical.

I have both the "Ah wrinkle" wrinkle and loads of material close to the mast. The "Ah wrinkle" is when there is some wind and I double block the main sheet. The thing you are describing here I have in light winds. I'm sure its my and getting used to the sail adjustments.


Ian
 
It's not the same wrinkle as described in the Ah the Wrinkle thread. It's totally vertical. It doesn't go from where the mast pieces join. It goes from the head of the sail right behind the mast sleeve, runs the entire length of the mast, to the tack.

Yes, I've also had this same vertical wrinkle on a legal sail, but you can get rid of it by playing with the sail controls. I can't get the Intensity wrinkle to go away.

Maybe more vang and less cunningham would work? Is there any chance that your top section is bent? That might be causing it too.
 
Maybe more vang and less cunningham would work? Is there any chance that your top section is bent? That might be causing it too.

My top section is not bent. It's light air, so I'm using little to no cunningham. I've tried varying the vang, too.
 
Is there any chance that your top section is bent? That might be causing it too.

Mine - unlikely. New this year and not been out in any really heavy winds yet - miserable winds this summer. Also, whilst still learning the techniques for a Laser I'm being cautious with the vang (a high purchase one) as I don't want to overdo it and damage the mast (yet - read that a lot of vang then bear away risks bending the top section so I'm still at the "careful" stage).

Ian
 
Our experience, (we have about 12 guys using these sails) has been that the sail does not like cunningham in any breeze. Also, it does not like the outhaul to be "cranked" on either. The best thing to do for cunningham adjustment is "snug it up" from time to time while going upwind, but never cleat it. Just pull the wrinkles out and keep going. Vang is necessary for leech tension as with the legal sail. Also, as withthe legal sail, the wrinkles are ugly, but do not affect speed or pointing.
 
Our experience, (we have about 12 guys using these sails) has been that the sail does not like cunningham in any breeze. Also, it does not like the outhaul to be "cranked" on either. The best thing to do for cunningham adjustment is "snug it up" from time to time while going upwind, but never cleat it. Just pull the wrinkles out and keep going. Vang is necessary for leech tension as with the legal sail. Also, as withthe legal sail, the wrinkles are ugly, but do not affect speed or pointing.

I don't think you are understanding me. This is not a speed wrinkle. It is a totally vertical wrinkle, say a 4 to 5 inch lump of cloth, behind the mast. It is certainly affecting my speed. Nothing I do EVER makes the wrinkle go away in light air. It's light air and I'm not cranking anything on.
 
I know just what you mean seen it on my radial too, almost like a bulge like theres another mast behind the sail just after the first mast (a real fold from the top of the mast to the cunningham eye- note mines a laser/PSE sail not Intensity)...I can't quite remember what id did but it maybe cunningham nearly all off just a little more outhaul and perhaps just a squeek more vang (my off position on my vang is pretty tight anyway now- 30cms or so between block to block when mainsheet is released)
 
It's light air and I'm not cranking anything on.

A Laser sail is a flat, one dimensional sail with a curved luff. When you put it on a straight mast, there will be a crease from the top of the mast down the luff. If you put some vang on to bend the mast, the crease should go away.

Shouldn't you be using your class legal sail anyway if it is only light air?

Also, if you and Bradley haven't scared away the sailmaker with your recent censorship of his posts, and since you obviously know who he is, why don't you just ask him?
 
:eek:

Also, if you and Bradley haven't scared away the sailmaker with your recent censorship of his posts, and since you obviously know who he is, why don't you just ask him?[/QUOTE]
 
I don't think you are understanding me. This is not a speed wrinkle. It is a totally vertical wrinkle, say a 4 to 5 inch lump of cloth, behind the mast. It is certainly affecting my speed. Nothing I do EVER makes the wrinkle go away in light air. It's light air and I'm not cranking anything on.

It won't go away. It's affecting your speed because you're thinking about it too much and not concentrating on where the pointy end of the boat is going. :p We have top guys sailing these sails against top guys with class sails. There is no speed difference. Well, some of the class sail guys say the Intensity points a little better.
 
Sailchris is pretty spot on, IMHO. What Merrily is describing is too much luff curve put into the sail as compared to the amount her mast is bending.

It could be either Merrily has found a very stiff mast or perhaps a qc issue in the building of the sail (such as a luff tube made too wide, or a bad job of sticking the luff tube onto the luff curve on the actual sail)

If it were me, I would let someone else put the sail up on their mast, to eliminate the mast. If the problem is still there, it's time to call the sailmaker - a couple of photos, with the sail two blocked and vang snug will help him
 
Well, I don't appreciate being patronized by Rob B.

Also, because one person has a problem with an Intensity sail, it's the end?

Thanks, Greg, for your considered reply. I'll look into it.
 
Best solution is burn it and buy a real sail....sounds like the beginning of the end of this knock off wanna be.....

So those rumors that you guys were gonna be making your own sails are false? darn, I was really looking forward to buying one...
 
/Begin disclaimer for the Administrator/
Please note that the above post is intended as satire and/or humor.
/End disclaimer for the Administrator/

TROLLing for humor? It's not funny when you try too hard.

I've put out a serious post as a member of this forum, and it's turning into twaddle.
 
One thought:
Lay your class OK sail on the ground, stretch a bit of line between the head and e.g. Cunningham hole and measure the max distance between the line and the luff (maybe the position of the max as well though probably not so important. Then repeat with the Intensity sail and see if there is any difference.

Alternatively, lay them on top of each other and see if/where they are of different size.

Somebody said that Laser sails are built flat and the fullness is put in though a curved luff. Thus, the comparison should indicate if there is a significant difference.

Maybe repeat with other peoples' class and Intensity sails.

Ian


EDIT: And, if you do the above, do let us know the results. It is probably a matter of degree and it would be interesting to have a feel for the differences and variability.
 
This is the the first I am hearing if a vertical "lump" in the radial cut. I would appreciate it if an image could be sent to me directly. If there is a defect in the sail we will replace it.
I am in the 200Lb range so I have never used the radial personally. In the full rig the rule of thumb with the firmer finished cloth is a little more cunningham then the class sail's softer cloth to get the same shape. This of course assumes that the mast is not pre-bent.
The radial cut is a more complex sail to build but the firmer cloth has not changed the way the sail sets up on a spar.

When you say "wrinkle" and "lump" please define these. Do you mean a wrinkle from the way the sail was folded? As the seam structure is the same as the class sail there is no extra fabric to create a "lump".

In a nutshell, we stand behind our products. If there is a defect we will replace it.
 
The radial cut is a more complex sail to build but the firmer cloth has not changed the way the sail sets up on a spar.

When you say "wrinkle" and "lump" please define these. Do you mean a wrinkle from the way the sail was folded? As the seam structure is the same as the class sail there is no extra fabric to create a "lump".

In a nutshell, we stand behind our products. If there is a defect we will replace it.

I appreciate the response. I started this thread to get some tips on sail shaping to fix the problem, and I'll try those ideas first. I'll take a picture of the vertical wrinkle if it won't go away. I'm putting on a regatta today and am helping a friend buy a Laser tomorrow, so I won't be able to get to it this weekend. I'll also need light air, and some stormy weather is coming up, so watch this space. :eek:

P.S. It has nothing to do with a fold wrinkle, and from what I recall the sail is the same shape as my legal radial, as I laid the Intensity on top to get the correct spacing for the sail numbers. I'll check that again to see if it's a little off. I do know that the sleeve is large.
 
I will look forward to seeing the image.

I also think that my user name should change from Styluscentral (another business of mine) to IntensitySails. I do not want to confuse anyone or give the impression that I am hiding my identity.

Thank you.
 
I will look forward to seeing the image.

I also think that my user name should change from Styluscentral (another business of mine) to IntensitySails. I do not want to confuse anyone or give the impression that I am hiding my identity.

Thank you.

Jim, I always knew that styluscentral and Intensity sails were synonymous (sp?), but I suppose not everyone knows that. Ask Bradley to change your name. bgreen at sailingforums dot net
 
Well, I don't appreciate being patronized by Rob B.

Also, because one person has a problem with an Intensity sail, it's the end?

Thanks, Greg, for your considered reply. I'll look into it.

I thought the :p sign was a way to symbolize there is no intention to be patronizing. Oh well, back to smilie face school for me....
 
I have been going over this with my production guys. This is their response;

1. The Intensity cloth is firmer finished.

2. A certain amount of luff curve (+ve round) is needed to match the mast bend in conditions where the mainsheet is two blocked... otherwise the "ah-me" crease as described will be large, joined by many other deep wrinkles off the mast and converging towards the clew.

3. A softer cloth sail can be cut with a little less luff curve than a stiffer cloth since the act of pulling the cuningham tighter will induce a little more +ve curve in the front of the sail. (i.e. the same "pocket" that is being described can be induced in a soft luff sail by over tightening the cuningham in light air and not bending the mast).

4. The way to remove the described "pocket" behind the mast is to bend the mast more, either by vang or mainsheet. (same effect as drawing the string back on a bow & arrow). I would also suggest that the cuningham be left loose in these conditions.

5. Bottom line is these sails were developed as inexpensive training sails to "save" owner's very expensive race sails from being worn out, particualrly in medium and heavier winds, where the soft material used on the race sails quickly stretches out beyond memory/recovery making their investment short-lived. This is why one has to continually buy race sails to be competitive.

6. The Intensity sail is built from a firmer cloth with the goal of giving greater longevity to both the Intensity sail and the owner's race sail. Bottom line is the Intensity sail is one hell of a deal to any Laser sailor who is serious about their racing. The fact that the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail in many conditions is an added bonus. In very light air however, a user will have to anticipate that the firmer fabric of the Intensity training sail will set fuller off the mast (i.e with a small pocket) so the fix is to use more boom vang to bend the mast or, since its light air, choose the race sail because it will not be unduly stressed /damaged in light air conditions.

7. By the way, in time /some use of the Intensity sail, it will become softer and the pocket behind the luff will become less and less pronounced.
 
Speaking of Intensity sails, I just received my new one in the mail. Haven't had a chance to use it yet. My question is: what is the ideal location of the telltails? Can anyone help? Thanks. JNK
 
That seems to be a personal preference issue. I remember reading that the lower tells should be diagonally above the forward end of the window and far enough back from the mast to get good air flow. I have seen people use 3 sets in this area but I personally only have the attention span for one set.
 

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