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Sails...I'm going THERE again...

Rob B

Well-Known Member
So I'm looking at Andy Campbell's website and the stuff he has for sale. Interesting they are ALL sails. One with only 1 regatta on it and like 20 practice days. Others with no more than 3 regattas on them. So, basically our sails are good for 1 MONTH of racing and practice when you are at the top of your game?

I guess the 3 regatta sails had better cuts and the 1 regatta sail either really STUNK or it blew the dog off the chain for the whole regatta.

Come on! Let's get a longer lasting sail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
 

mlemieux1978

New Member
One might make the argument that we are not all Andy Campbell, but really you are correct, these sails don't last like they should. Its not as though Dacron is a new, experimantal product or something. When I fork over 550 for a new sail, I think it should last me at least 2 summers w/o making me wish for a new one. North is doing the same thing in all the other one designs as well. Imagine what its like to have to buy new sails for your J24 every other month. I think the class should shop around a bit when it picks its supplier. Since they are all the same, why not go budget and hire Neil Pryde? All the sails are lasercut and assembled in China any way. (at least i think so)
 

torrid

Just sailing
Not that the quality of Laser sails is up to snuff, but I don't think he's a good yardstick to measure with. Somebody at his level will buy a new sail for every regatta regardless of use/quality/cost.
 

Kratos

Member
Not that the quality of Laser sails is up to snuff, but I don't think he's a good yardstick to measure with. Somebody at his level will buy a new sail for every regatta regardless of use/quality/cost.
This is true. When you're not paying for the sails, one every regatta is the way it goes.

Maybe two regattas per sail max depending on conditions.

This way, you always have a training sail that is fresh and close to that with which you are racing.

Although the difference is minimal, training with a bed sheet and then racing with a new, crisp sail could throw you off/make your sail control settings that little bit different.

I'll use a sail generally for about 3, maybe 4 regattas.
 

mlemieux1978

New Member
Shatty,

how many events do you do a year? I guess It's not too bad compared to my ski season passes at 2 hills, but not when you count in the cost of belonging to a club. Say you do your 3 regattas a year and you pay 500 for club dues. That kicks your sailing budget over a grand, plus traveling expenses. The laser GP here in district 7 is 5 events, plus there are several open events. I figure an active 30 something sailor like myself could do 6 or 7 events. To be competitve according to you i need 2 sails a season. I don't think thats right. I also sail on a Cookson 50. Its a $500k per year program but even with that kind of expense account they don't replace a sail after 8 days.
 

Kratos

Member
Shatty,

how many events do you do a year? I guess It's not too bad compared to my ski season passes at 2 hills, but not when you count in the cost of belonging to a club. Say you do your 3 regattas a year and you pay 500 for club dues. That kicks your sailing budget over a grand, plus traveling expenses. The laser GP here in district 7 is 5 events, plus there are several open events. I figure an active 30 something sailor like myself could do 6 or 7 events. To be competitve according to you i need 2 sails a season. I don't think thats right. I also sail on a Cookson 50. Its a $500k per year program but even with that kind of expense account they don't replace a sail after 8 days.
Whoa haha, I was just saying that was my thing. Not every should/can/will/needs to follow that. Depending on schedules, 6 a summer would be normal, then maybe one a winter. CORK, NA's, Sail East, NQR (National team Qualifying Regatta for Canada), a couple locals. And yes, for me, sailing costs over $1000 a summer...rather easily I'm afraid to say. Never did I say you must replace your sail every ___ events to be effective. That is untrue.

Jealous about the Cookson 50 part though.
 

mlemieux1978

New Member
Sorry to sound a little heated there, I get a little carried away about my 76 sq. feet of dacron wearing out. Good luck with your season.

Mike
 

commodorejoel

New Member
Laser Sails are horrible. I just purchased a new boat from Vanguard...and I don't like my creases in my brand new sail...maybe if the sail was old I wouldn't mind...but I don't like paying for creased sails.
 

Kratos

Member
Laser Sails are horrible. I just purchased a new boat from Vanguard...and I don't like my creases in my brand new sail...maybe if the sail was old I wouldn't mind...but I don't like paying for creased sails.
lol that's the way she goes man. Unless you get a Hyde one that comes in a big tube, rolled around a piece of PVC tubing. Those are sweet, believe me.
 

yankees3

New Member
Re: Sails...Looking for used (non-competition)

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I am up on Lake George in NY State. Don't everybody giggle now. Our home is heated all year, the garage is not. Left a sail in the garage last winter, The Red Squirrrels will eat anything at below zero and no food. I am lookink for one or two used sails which will do the job. I can be reached at my office @ 914-333-0777 or @
yankees3@ix.netcom.com.
Thanks
 

madyottie

Apprentice
Very slightly off topic, but I was talking to a guy at the laser open our club held over the weekend, and he was complaining that he got beaten into second in the first race. He then went on to say that his current boat was quite old, and needed replacing. No drama there, except when I now say that he only races at regional level, and his boat is three months old!

Whats that about?

Last time I actually raced against him fairly (which was two years ago, and again he was in a brand new boat) I lead him around the course in both races, despite having a thirty year old boat and equally old sail. Unfortunately I managed to stuff it up near the end of both races although I think I still beat him in one of them. (last year my boat got slightly damaged and took a small army to remove it from the water, hence no result!)

Sadly my ancient sail fell apart late last season, so with only a replica I was unable to race this weekend, but having seen where he was in relation to the other club sailors in the fleet (it was a combined start with the handicap fleet racing the same course as the lasers) I think I could possibly have won this one as well, although I'll never know.

I do have a new class legal sail, but i'm saving it until my student income is enough to get a new top section... just in case!
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
Very slightly off topic, but I was talking to a guy at the laser open our club held over the weekend, and he was complaining that he got beaten into second in the first race. He then went on to say that his current boat was quite old, and needed replacing. No drama there, except when I now say that he only races at regional level, and his boat is three months old!

Whats that about?

Last time I actually raced against him fairly (which was two years ago, and again he was in a brand new boat) I lead him around the course in both races, despite having a thirty year old boat and equally old sail. Unfortunately I managed to stuff it up near the end of both races although I think I still beat him in one of them. (last year my boat got slightly damaged and took a small army to remove it from the water, hence no result!)

Sadly my ancient sail fell apart late last season, so with only a replica I was unable to race this weekend, but having seen where he was in relation to the other club sailors in the fleet (it was a combined start with the handicap fleet racing the same course as the lasers) I think I could possibly have won this one as well, although I'll never know.

I do have a new class legal sail, but i'm saving it until my student income is enough to get a new top section... just in case!
This guy is blaming his gear for his bad tactical decisions.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
I saw it. Looks like this is a big step ahead of the new sail the class is looking at, but 58% more sail is almost scary!
 

SFBayLaser

Member
I had an opportunity to try this sail out a couple of weeks ago at one of our Thursday Night races at St Francis. The wind was upper teens, low twenties with a bit of chop. I was really surprised, pleasantly I might add, to find out how nicely it went upwind. For so much sail area it didn't feel like more than a standard Laser. In the racing, I didn't point quite as high, but was a bit faster so, upwind, it was a push, I thought.

Downwind was a completely different story, the boat was an absolute rocketship with this huge sail up. I absolutely have never gone that fast in a Laser! In the lighter stuff, where the other boats were dropping off waves, is where I made huge gains as I was able to just keep chugging along when the other boats were looking for the next wave.

So, huge thumbs up on the fun factor.

On the downside.... I traded boats with Peter Vessella so he could try it out. On his first run he had the most massive deathroll I think I have seen and when the mast hit the water it made that awful creaking sound. Result was a top section bent beyond repair AND a bent bottom section.

I guess that will teach you not to death roll...

Anyway, like I said, it sure was a kick to sail with! Best to not use the racing spars though.
 

Deimos

Member
One aspect to these larger/oversized rigs that tends to concern me a bit is the structural aspects to the Laser. I assume that when designed (or subsequently “tweaked”), the strengths were calculated based on the expected loads and wear from the standard rig. I would assume they add good margins to allow for gusts/deterioration/wear/whatever but the starting point for the calculations is presumably the standard rig.

I’m no engineer but with an unstayed rig I would expect the poor hole for the mast to take quite some load (and wear). Considering the leverage the forces exerted of the tube must be quite high. To allow for the same safety margins (as in margins before failure rather than “wear a life jacket” type safety), I would expect a larger rig to exert greater forces and thus designing from scratch maybe more strengthening around the deck/mast tube/hull at base of mast step/etc.

Maybe lager rigs without the structural improvements to match would increase wear/shorten life and can only increase the likelihood of failure.

All that said, I have only seen the pics referenced above and even if I had loads more detailed info I am no engineer so my comments are just an un-informed slight concern.
Ian
 

nickbrad39

New Member
Taking another stance, I don't think using new technology sails is the way to go. I say that having come from sailing a Finn, where the rig and sails have become optimized/customized, etc...

The result is that the performance gap separating "pros" (who can afford to optimize their equipment) from the rest of us hacks increases to the point where the fun gets sucked out of racing (its nice to have at least a minimal chance of a top finish). I think this is one reason the Finn class is shrinking - its not a nurturing environment for beginners/local sailors.

I would rather see the price of the current legal sails reduced down to $250. If the suppliers would be a little less greedy with their profit margins on class legal equipment, I think a people would be happier (using 1970's technology isn't so bad if you are paying 1970's prices).

Further,I don't have a problem with the sails being made in some 3rd world country - if it means the price can be kept low (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't already made in the 3rd world, with North or Hyde pocketing all the extra profit)
 

mlemieux1978

New Member
The North one design sails are made in Asia, or used to be. I think you hit the nail on the head with the price, though. Paying $550 for a sail definitely makes me think twice about the purchase. Thats pretty much all my regatta traveling money for the year(fuel+food). Its about time for me to replace my sail, since its been in use since '04. It'll make it through the winter as a frostbite sail. there are guys in my fleet who have practice sails that look better than my old rag. 54" Dacron in 4.4oz retails for about $16 plus shipping retail. 10k yards of thread is about $40. a window is $13. These are retail prices from sailrite.com. That makes the material cost for a 76 sq ft sail about 143 dollars retail. i realize that there is cost in the tooling for the laser cutter for the fabric plus wear and tear on the sewing machine, and people gotta get paid, but 400 bucks? REALLY? Whats up with the radial costing less? Its only a couple sq. less and has more, more complex shaped panels. Does the class have a measurer on staff at the loft or does it do a sample of construction like the hull? the boat is a strict one design, which is great. With the best sailors getting a new sail for every major event, we don't have modification gap in this class, we have budget gap. That statement may be inflammatory and over the top, but its true at some level in every fleet and at every club. OK rant over. Not that complaining gets you anywhere, but I needed to vent.

Happy sailing
Mike
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
The north sails come from Sri Lanka. I'm not sure about the Hyde sails. I think they take "sample" sails from the lofts on occasion and spot check the measurements and cloth to insure they are within the manufacturing allowable tolerances. I bought a new sail in 2005 and used it in a spring series, an national event and a fall series. I was able to get one more national level event out of it before it lost all competitive form. So, just over 1 year. Looking at other classes I know the J22 class goes through jibs at the same rate. Our sails main problem, (IMHO) is it looses its leech tension. Once you are no longer able to get a tight leech you are toast.
 

mlemieux1978

New Member
I think you are right on that point, Rob. I don't think we have much choice when it comes to how long a sail can last because of the nature of the rig. There's a lot of tension there when you are two-blocked.
 

Murphs

New Member
I think in 18 months or so we could see a new model Standard Rig sail with upgraded reinforcing, better shape and hopefully better longevity.

The prototype is in development...
There is also a prototype Radial being tested along the same lines
 
Could someone please repost the pics of the "experimental" sail that was used/shown at the worlds... For some reason I don't seem to be very good with the search function.

Thanks.
 

SFBayLaser

Member
The prototype sail in the photos is from Hyde. North has also produced a prototype sail for consideration, something a bit less radical, and Clive Humphris, the ILCA Technical Officer, is testing it in Australia. Hopefully there will be some pictures of it to post soon.
 

49208

Tentmaker
IIRC, North made a few prototypes - a couple radial panelled and a couple crosscut panelled. Larger radial patches, all with different cloth.
 

Murphs

New Member
The current is using the same cloth, crosscut pattern but with a few more seams (narrower panels), larger patches, larger window, larger 'sock' at the tack to 'reduce mast load' apparently...
 

Clive Humphris

ILCA Technical
OK - here is a picture of the North submission sail that has been released for testing by ILCA and the builders over the last month.
The brief given to North was to propose a better quality sail with more durability that doesn’t change the game.
As you can see the proposal retains the crosscut design but with more seams for improved stability, a wider sleeve, which has the potential to reduce the wrinkles that appear from the mast joint, improved and larger corner patches to reduce the sailcloth stress levels, the window is larger and batten pockets have a new diamond reinforcement patch to help disperse the loads from the batten tip.
 

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