Sail Trim overview

J

Jive

New Member
Hello everyone, I'm new here. I'm also new to racing Lasers, though I have been a sailor for many years...

Anyway I have done some searching and haven't found anywhere that has a clear cut outline of the conventional wisdom for trimming a laser. So I was thinking, first for my own edification, and second for that of other newbies such as myself, that it would be nice to have almost a chart like the one in the Knowledge center (except this time filled out). If some of you wouldn't mind answering these questions that would be great I think. So here is what I had in mind.

Heavy Wind (close hauled):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Heavy Wind (reaching):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Heavy Wind (running):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Medium Wind (close hauled):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Medium Wind (reaching):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Medium Wind (running):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Ligth Wind (close hauled):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Light Wind (reaching):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-

Light Wind (running):
Vang-
Cunningham-
Outhaul-


I also have another question just in addition to this idea, which is, what ways are there to get more point or ups? Is there something that would have a similar effect to tightening a backstay?

Thanks everyone
 
The reason it isn't clear cut is because the rig is so flexible and conditions vary from place to place. Personal body weight plays a big part, and technique and the surface of the water. If I were to fill out your form above, it may not be right for you. There are 'general' indications such as:

tightening the vang flattens the sail, depowers it - possibly could be what you are looking for in a backstay.

But then the exceptions cut in. Some believe in no vang up to 10knots or so; some two block the vang from 5-10kn; some let the vang all the way off in winds above 25kn.

Bear in mind that overall, whatever you adjust will have a small effect on every other adjustment of the boat. To increase pointing you can leave the cunningham off, but that will effect the outhaul setting and the leech tension. A laser is a constantly changing dynamic piece of equipment and it doesn't bear up well under static, logical and scientific laboratory examination.

the easiest thing is to sail it and think later.
 
thanks for that link, they do have some good stuff on there as I just quickly glanced at it a moment ago. (you're a chicago yacht club member? That's pretty cool, so is my Grandfather... he's also a member at columbia.... bit of an old timer :) )

Anyway while I recognize that these things are dynamic and always changing, as with most things in life, there must certainly be a conventional wisdom to them. Yes perhaps tightening one will require an adjustment on another, but there must be a general rule for most things. For example: You're not going to crank in the vang when you are on a dead run, and you probably don't want the outhaul as tight as possible when there is 2 knots of air. I'm not talking about the end all be all of trimming, just the overview. Like if you're closehauled in 15 knots you want the vang in tight... or if its light wind you want it off, maybe with just a smidge of pressure. Those are the answers I'm talking about, not like cunningham at 3 inches if your vang is maxed with your outhaul on 1 inch etc.
 
Jive:

I am not the right guy to give you advice, just got back into the boat after 25 years (probably the age of your grandpa), and I am 50 lbs too heavy and quite slow. I read something on forum that led me to this siite, it is Fred's website (thanks Fred!), he has some awesome pictures of rigging as well as this chart, might be a good starting place, adjust for your own weight from there.

Good sailing

http://schrothfiberglass.com/Tuninguide.htm
 
Jive said:
For example: You're not going to crank in the vang when you are on a dead run, and you probably don't want the outhaul as tight as possible when there is 2 knots of air.
Click to expand...

Before sailing by the lee became common in lasers, cranking the vang on tight downwind was used in an attempt to reduce death rolling.

Off the top of my head, Dick Tillman's books have a 'general guide', also Ben Ainslie's book is more indepth but still general.

settings.jpg



this chart comes out of a Tillman book. You'll see on the last row that outhaul shouldbe drum tight above 15mph. I am 100% sure that in waves if you did that, you would almost stop.
 
My general guide would be this:

Close hauled

Light wind: enough vang to make the sail a taut bag. Outhaul half tight, cunningham off.

Medium wind: 3/4 vang, outhaul half to 3/4 tight, enough cunningham to to take the wrinkles out of the luff.

Heavy wind: two block full vang, outhaul 3/4 tight, tight cunningham depending on ability to hold the boat flat.

If any of these conditions happen while beating into steepish waves or chop, tighten the outhaul sparingly. On flat water use more outhaul until the boat feels light and fluid or springy again.

Reaching

Light winds: Outhaul off, cunningham off, enough vang to make taut bag, maybe a little less.

Medium winds: As above with more vang.

Heavy: As above with more vang, outhaul or cunningham to suit conditions.

Running

Light: All controls off.

Medium: enough vang to assist by the lee sailing, all else off.

Heavy: as above but more vang.
 
Chainsaw said:
this chart comes out of a Tillman book. You'll see on the last row that outhaul shouldbe drum tight above 15mph. I am 100% sure that in waves if you did that, you would almost stop.
Click to expand...


the outhaul depends on what kind of conditions, it can be drum tight in 25 on flat water, but in 25 with some waves, you gotta ease it off to keep your drive
 
Bungo Pete said:
RE: The Tillman chart
What does "no curl" mean?
Click to expand...

Search me. In the 1983 edition of the book, Tillman didn't have the curl/ no curl line from this chart and just went with the "distance from foot to boom" line to describe outhaul settings. He also recommends 1 inch "foot to boom" for heavy winds instead of 0 inches. I'm guessing the 1983 version is later then the copy above?

So even the great Tillman changed his mind over the years. And I think the current recommendation would be for even looser outhauls than in the Tillman charts anyway. And as Ross says, it's different in waves and flat water too.

But I am knot an expert. I am knot Dick Tillman. I am knot Linda Tillman. My opinion has know weight.
 
The curl/no curl on the outhaul for the full rig goes back to older sail, made from 3.2oz Dacron. Since the new 3.8oz sail came out, the outhaul settings are considerbly looser as the sail does not get as deep in the lower section as the lighter wt sail did as the breeze comes on.
 
Hey Everyone, thanks alot for the imput, that's exactly what I was looking for and some of these links and charts you sent are good things to look over. Was out racing on a J-105 yesterday and that's what brought about the question of a backstay.

(My grandfather, though, is probably not as young as you think... haha he would have a very tough time getting on a laser. The last time he was on a dinghy was about 18 years ago when i capsized both of us in the virgin islands haha.... he's a good swimmer though)
 
I posted the attached radial rig setting guide in another thread. I agree that some vang tension on a radial even in light wind is required i.e. pull the main on to the block to block point and just snug the vang. Let the main go and that results in about 8 inches between the rear main blocks. The setting for light that whirlwind2 describes is more like my strong wind setting i.e.so much vang tension that the main blocks dont seperate even with no main sheet tension. I try to induce a little more twist and low down fullness for waves with the cunningham and outhaul settings to get extra drive -vang settings the same though.
 

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