Rules Question (Before starting and after finishing)

Thread starter #1
Winter (plus a couple of years since last racing) - so time to revise the rules.


I'm unsure how the rules apply before starting and after finishing (or maybe its just unsure about when one actually starts and ends "racing"). Rule 31.1 says that if you hit a starting mark before starting or a finishing mark after finishing you do, 360. However rule also says "while racing" yet before starting you are not racing and after finishing you are also not racing. I can only assume that you are considered to be racing before starting and after finishing but how long before and after ?


Part 2 rules say at the beginning that Part 2 applies in or near the racing area who intend to race, are racing or have raced. However, rule 31.1 is in Part 3 NOT part 2 so prefix to Part 2 does not apply.




Also, Part 2 has a prefix about Part 2 rules applying before, during and after a race in the race area. However, it says a boat not racing will not be penalised under the Part 2 rules - thus, other than collision avoidance (good manners and insurance), what is the point to the before and after racing bit as you will not be penalised for breaking them. Whilst racing the penalties apply but before and after rules apply but no penalties for breaking them ? Again, maybe its to do with when you start and finish racing ?


Ian
 
#2
You are "racing" from your prep signal until you have finished and cleared the finish line. And you are right in assuming that there is no penalty for touching a mark when you are not "racing".

But Rule 22.1 says that if reasonably possible a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing. For example after you have finished a race you should sail clear of the course and keep away from boats that are still racing to the finish line. If you lose a Rule 22.1 protest, then under rule 63.1 (c) you will receive a penalty that will be applied to the race sailed nearest in time to that of the incident.
 
Thread starter #3
Many thanks. Just seemed a bit strange having rules but no penalty for breaking them (at certain times and excluding 22.1).

Thus, I assume that before your preparatory signal whilst you may be on port and somebody else of starboard, if you do not give them room you are thus in the "wrong" but no penalties, nothing happens (except you "piss-off" everybody else). Not something I would do (at least not deliberately and not often;) ).

Ian
 
#4
Yeah right Deimos. If is before the start signal for both boats then neither of you is racing and so, as far as I know, there is no penalty for an accidental collision. Of course if you go around deliberately ramming into your opposition then you could be penalized uner Rule 2 Fair Sailing which applies all the time.

Be careful also if there are multiple fleets starting at different times. Even if it is before your prep signal you must not interfere with boats in a fleet that has had their prep signal.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#5
If you touch a mark while finishing, you need to go back to the prefinish side of the line, do your turn (one tack and one jibe) and finish (again) :eek: .
 

gouvernail

Active Member
#7
and remember, you do not have any rights from the time you begin to take your penalty until you finish that penalty.

I am unclear on whether you resume your rights before 360 is turned.

Example>

if a sailor almost finishes on stbd except for that tiny whack of the mark, , tacks, and gybes, but is no where near finished with a 360 revolution ...yet... does the boat already have rights on the approaching port finishers?
Certainly the freshly starboard yacht would have to play by the usual rules applicable to other boats related to gybing and obtaining fresh right of way...
but when does the penalty end and the new right of way and necessity for the porties to begin responding commence??
 

Rob B

Active Member
#8
and remember, you do not have any rights from the time you begin to take your penalty until you finish that penalty.

I am unclear on whether you resume your rights before 360 is turned.

Example>

if a sailor almost finishes on stbd except for that tiny whack of the mark, , tacks, and gybes, but is no where near finished with a 360 revolution ...yet... does the boat already have rights on the approaching port finishers?
Certainly the freshly starboard yacht would have to play by the usual rules applicable to other boats related to gybing and obtaining fresh right of way...
but when does the penalty end and the new right of way and necessity for the porties to begin responding commence??
The 360 turn is defined as one tack, one jibe, (or one jibe, one tack). So, after that the turn is done and rules are back on.
 
#9
What happens if you foul a boat after the prep signal but before the starting signal? Do you have to wait until you have started to do your penalty turns? This would seem to be the reasonable approach (and what I have always done) but as I remember the rules this wasn't very clear to me.
 

Rob B

Active Member
#10
You can do your turns as fast as you can before the gun, (assuming you can get clear). Hopefully you will have time to get the turns done and get a decent position on the line. Doing turns right after the gun would be death. Especially in a big fleet with good sailors.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#11
You can do your turns as fast as you can before the gun, (assuming you can get clear). Hopefully you will have time to get the turns done and get a decent position on the line. Doing turns right after the gun would be death. Especially in a big fleet with good sailors.
Looked this up in the rule book; Rob is correct.
 
#13
Just make sure you jibe/gybe (which comes first, assuming you were on starboard tack when you touched the mark) on the pre-finish side of the line. The tack should come next.
It would be helpful for those that are trying to learn the rules to also note the rule number that you are referring to. I don't think you'll find one for this quote above. You can double check yourself within rule 44.
 

Rob B

Active Member
#14
You can jibe first. It's actually the fastest way to do a turn out of a close hauled sailing position. You bear away into a quick role jibe, then head back up into a quick roll tack and recross the line on starboard tack again.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#15
It would be helpful for those that are trying to learn the rules to also note the rule number that you are referring to. I don't think you'll find one for this quote above. You can double check yourself within rule 44.
Yes, I should have listed the rule; it's 31.2 (second sentence). Now that I look at the actual language again, I am not so sure anymore whether one has to go to the course side of the (finish) line prior to taking the penalty. It depends on the interpretation of "finishing" (which is defined on p. 151 of the RRS). Hopefully, someone else can enlighten us.
 
#16
It depends on the interpretation of "finishing" (which is defined on p. 151 of the RRS
I don't believe any terms that are included in the definitions are really open for interpretation. The definition will tell us exactly what it is intended to mean. Keep in mind, even though you have finished, you are still racing (see definitions) until you clear the finish line; ie no longer overlapped with the mark, and still bound by the RRS.
 

Rob B

Active Member
#17
Here's one. Define what "clear the line" means. It is not defined in the book. I take this to mean you could poke your bow over, get a finish and then dip back down and sail clear of the course. Our club just had a rules seminar and we went round and round on this one to the point that the judge said he would recommend to Perry that the next book have the term "finished" defined more clearly.
 
#18
I take this to mean you could poke your bow over, get a finish and then dip back down and sail clear of the course. quote]


Absolutely!!

example: A few years ago, the North Americans were sailed in San Francisco Bay. One of the days the last mark was set aout a quarter mile directly up wind and up current frfom Alcatraz island.

The first few competitors made it across while the curent was building. By the time I got there closely followed by Chuck Tripp, crossing the line was no longer possible.

I passed just to leeward of pin and headed toward the boat. At the back end of the boat I tacked and stuck my bow up as straight and hard as I could and just barely poked it over the line. I saw Chuck come up and poke his bow just across at the pin but he wasn't sure so he kept going and did the same move I did at the boat end. He didn't even make it to the back of the boat.
The guys on the committee boat finally extended some mercy to Chuck and told him he had in fact crossed by a couple inches on the first try.

Note: The only reason I was anywhere near Chcuk at the finish was the fact I lucked into some sort of swirl of the tide and launched past about fifteen boats just on that last short weather leg. Nobody behind us finished the race.

end thread hijack
 
#19
Just make sure you jibe/gybe (which comes first, assuming you were on starboard tack when you touched the mark) on the pre-finish side of the line. The tack should come next.
Hmmm...does circling the finish mark after touching it to exonerate yourself still comply with Rule 28.1 "Sailing the Course"? It's definitely much faster than re-crossing to the course side of the line to do your penalty turn and then finishing...

Mike S
 

Rob B

Active Member
#20
I ran this past a judge. It's like hitting any mark. Accept for this one if you round it and hit it, you clear the mark, (your natural progress of clearing the mark if it was on the port side of the line and you were passing it on starboard tack) like you would rounding a weather mark, bear away, jibe, harden up on port and then tack back to Starboard and recross the finish.

If you hit the pin on port tack, (passing ot on your starboard side) the fastest way to clear yourself is to bear off, jibe, harden up on starboard, tack back to port and recross. The process of bearing away to jibe in both cases puts you back on the course side of the line.

If you hit on a starboard approach you do not have to "untie the knot" to get back to the course side to do your turn as you are not considered finished in the first place. Just look out for other racers while getting the turn done.
 
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