Rudder Upgrade

Eric VB

Member
I have the old style rudder on my 1970 which has been frustrating at best and want to upgrade it to the new style. Can I use the old tiller with the new rudder or do I need to upgrade both at the same time? Not the best photo but all I have at the moment.
rudder.jpg
 
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Hi, Thanks for the response. Yes, I bought the "official" white plastic tube on ebay. I even tried the piece of intertube recommended by the Sunfish Bible and the rudder still pops off even in moderate winds. I was out yesterday spinning in circles on a windy day and it was really frustrating.
 
You already have the "new style" rudder blade, tiller straps and tiller. Someone put the "old style" vertical hinge plate and rudder straps on the new style parts.

So yes, you can use that rudder blade, tiller straps and tiller if you decide to convert.

As for the old style rudder releasing mechanism, problems can arise...
-if thumb nut tension is too loose for the sailing conditions.
-if the beveled bottom tip of the vertical hinge plate is worn, or if the cup on the keel latch plate is worn, or both.
-if any deck or hull mounting screws are loose.
-if the rectangular spring plate that sits on top of the deck horizontal hinge plate is bent.
-if keel latch plate is loose or bent.
-if incorrect hardware or fasteners are used.

On a properly tuned rudder releasing mechanism, you can tighten the thumb screw down tight enough that the blade might break before the mechanism released. How tight are you tightening the thumb screw?
 
Wow, so I already have the most expensive pieces to convert to the new rudder style? Are these the only pieces I need to make the conversion?

Rudder cheek with springs
Gudgeon with backer plate
Inspection port

I have the thumb screw on there really tight now and it's even bending the top spring plate a bit. Is that too tight? I havent tried it this tight yet.
 

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Yep that's too tight. Maybe even bent. Take a photo of the spring plate with no tension on it. And photos of the lower tip of the vertical hinge plate and the cup of the latch plate.

To convert you need
Entire rudder cheek with pintle and spring
2 side springs
Rudder spring pin
Gudgeon
Backer plate with bump to properly fit inside face of transom

gudgeon backing plate.jpg


Inspection port
 
Here it is with no tension at all. Even if I get this working for the rest of the summer I'm going to upgrade. I'm in Maine and the season is short
 

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The spring plate looks okay.

Is there something in that latch plate cup? The edge of the cup looks a little worn.

Can you get a photo of the lower tip of the vertical hinge plate?

And does the keel latch plate look straight, and screw snug?
 
The spring plate looks okay.

Is there something in that latch plate cup? The edge of the cup looks a little worn.

Can you get a photo of the lower tip of the vertical hinge plate?

And does the keel latch plate look straight, and screw snug?

Yes, I'll take some more pictures. It's a little tricky because it's in the water.

I found this set up on Craigslist for $225. I don't need the rudder blade and tiller but rudder cheek, springs and pintle sold new is about the same price. What do you think of this option?
 

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I bought the new rudder assembly from the seller on Craigslist. I pick it up in about 10 days since it's a bit of a drive. Should be a fun project doing the upgrade. I really appreciate the advice.

This is the best photo I can get of that lower latch cup. There is a little water in it. Not sure if this is considered worn or not. If anyone has any ideas to get me by until I do the upgrade.

Thanks
 

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I found this set up on Craigslist for $225. I don't need the rudder blade and tiller but rudder cheek, springs and pintle sold new is about the same price. What do you think of this option?
Somebody here might like the good rudder blade. ($100?)

Or list here on this forum.
 
Ideas.
-You'd need to check the keel latch plate to make sure it is not bent.
-Look at the bottom tip of the vertical hinge plate to see if it is worn. If it is a little worn AND the cup in the latch plate is worn, that's an issue.

vertical hinge plate.jpeg


-Maybe put a few wraps of tape around the nylon sleeve on the carriage bolt, to keep it as centered as possible in the transom cove.
- Also make sure there is no play in the non OEM rudder pin you are using.
 
Ideas.
-You'd need to check the keel latch plate to make sure it is not bent.
-Look at the bottom tip of the vertical hinge plate to see if it is worn. If it is a little worn AND the cup in the latch plate is worn, that's an issue.

View attachment 52528

-Maybe put a few wraps of tape around the nylon sleeve on the carriage bolt, to keep it as centered as possible in the transom cove.
- Also make sure there is no play in the non OEM rudder pin you are using.

Thanks for the great suggestions. I'm going to look at it and test it extensively today. 90F in Maine today provides a good reason to get in the water.
 
I have the vintage parts on the “free“ Sunfish we’ve been sailing for about 30 years. The brackets and bits were in tough shape. Pre internet but I worked at a machine builder So I made up this hack using aluminum and SS pintles. It is now so warn as to be a PITA. It’s all going away for new stuff, under way now. The original boat had no spars, sails, CB or rudder so my wood bits are a hack too. I opted for vertical on the rudder years ago and have kept to the plan. I will be adding a 4” port in the aft deck in order to add glass and a backing plate.

A bit of serendipity, the extreme aft end of the tiller bumps the blade down if you raise the handle end. No reaching over the transom.

I inverted the rudder pin so there is no interference or pinch on top. The protruding pin has a corresponding counter bore in the rudder blade for when the blade is up. I think the new design parts and plan are far superior to the old bronze spring stuff that I wish I’d done this years ago. Use a factory blade If y want to keep in spec.

good luck with your project
 

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Yep that's too tight. Maybe even bent. Take a photo of the spring plate with no tension on it. And photos of the lower tip of the vertical hinge plate and the cup of the latch plate.

To convert you need
Entire rudder cheek with pintle and spring
2 side springs
Rudder spring pin
Gudgeon
Backer plate with bump to properly fit inside face of transom

View attachment 52481

Inspection port

I received this with my parts for upgrade. It absolutely did not fit over the hump. I used thick epoxy-glass pads laid up inside the hull.
 
N58,
That humped gudgeon backer plate part does not "fit" as you and I would have imagined, which I thought would be secure enough that the plate makes contact with the inside vertical face of the transom. The indentation on the backer plate seems to serve merely as a guide over the hull's carriage bolt molding, and the parts nestle together enough so that the backer plate doesn't wander while it is being tightened. It's hard enough to get good alignment of the plate, old wooden backer block bits and fiberglass strapping for the keel latch plate wood block need to be trimmed away.

Gudgeon hump backer installed.jpeg


BUT, try this with the flat backer plate, there's some fun.

Insert random steamboat photo below:

B6C832BD-9B8E-4392-87EC-B363B0ABCE25.jpeg
 
Eric VB,

Do you need the (external) stainless steel gudgeon bracket for your rudder sysyem upgrade project? I have them for $15 + shipping including original stainless mounting screws and lock nuts. I do not have any (internal) backing plates at this writing, but large stainless washers will work for day sailing.

Alan Glos
Cazenovia, NY
 

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Eric VB,

Do you need the (external) stainless steel gudgeon bracket for your rudder sysyem upgrade project? I have them for $15 + shipping including original stainless mounting screws and lock nuts. I do not have any (internal) backing plates at this writing, but large stainless washers will work for day sailing.

Alan Glos
Cazenovia, NY

note my post 21. At least on my antique the bracket did not fit over the hump. I laid about 3/8” of epoxy glass on each side of the bump inside the transom and then 1/8“ over the two patches including the hump. SS fender washers, bolts, elastic stop nuts. The bolts and bracket will fail before the transom.
 
I believe we have the hump backed gudgeon backers.

if it looks like this it does not fit. This cross section is about identical to a hunk cut from the transom. Meaning, it does not nest on either inside or outside of the hump.

you will need to cut a port anyway. You might as well reinforce the ransom with glass & epoxy. Yes a block and tackle to make the hull vertical. This makes it simple As gravity becomes your ally. Tape around the port to keep epoxy off the deck.
 

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Rudder and hull pretty much done. New paint, lemonjellow, needs a couple more days to harden. I need to add a dowel to prevent the tiller from falling onto the deck. New scupper installed. I made a plastic clip screwed to the tiller that stores the extension. Tiller and extension are hinged on a tight rope with rubber washers compressed between. Surprisingly tight joint but universally flexible.
 

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Today, complete. Ports covered, drain scupper installed, rudder fitted
 

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Nicholson58,

A few comments on your recent posts. First, your paint job and rudder retrofit are impressive, and I am guessing your oversized, vertical rudder performs well, especially downwind. My only concern is lifting the hull to vertical with tackle attached to the bow handle. As this is a pre-1972 hull, the bow handle is attached to the deck by wood screws into a wood block glassed into the deck under the bow area and was never intended to hold the full weight of the hull. I would worry that the bow handle will pull out and the hull will crash. Maybe you can rig up a lifting bridle of some sort, but don't rely on the bow handle alone.

Alan Glos
Cazenovia, NY
 
You can see from the pictures that it was OK. My boat is old as dirt.

my opinion is that ports are necessary moving forward just to maintain the hull. Cement in using MarineTex and ABS ports. Do not use polypropylene or polyethylene ports. Nothing will stick at all, ever.
 
Eric VB,

Do you need the (external) stainless steel gudgeon bracket for your rudder sysyem upgrade project? I have them for $15 + shipping including original stainless mounting screws and lock nuts. I do not have any (internal) backing plates at this writing, but large stainless washers will work for day sailing.

Alan Glos
Cazenovia, NY

Thank you for offering, Alan. I would have taken you up on this but I already bought one on eBay. I wish I had bought yours because $15 is a better price than what I paid and the hardware that came with it was less than stellar.
 
I also finished my rudder upgrade, and man, what a difference in performance the new one makes. I took it out for the first time in heavy wind yesterday and even with the boat heeled way over and a couple of capsizes it never popped off like the old one did. It was totally worth the money and effort.
 

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Good to hear of your success. I like the tiller extension. Where do you sail?

It’s nearly the end of summer sailing here, northern Michigan. I finally received new class sails for our ‘free’ 1957 Rebel From Quantum sail loft. Tried them yesterday. Pretty nice but it needs a tiller extension like yours.

We sailed both Rebel and Tornado yesterday. Just about time to tarp everything and head back to Trinidad.
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Finishing the last of the details on my Sunfish project. Applied registration details just now.
 
N-58,

I am feeling a little nostalgic seeing your recent posts. My first sailboat ride ever was in a Ray Green designed Rebel when I was a youngster in Oxford, Ohio (tiny Acton Lake) and then vacationed with family on beautiful lakes in the greater Traverse City area of Michigan, mostly Crystal and Glen Lakes. What lake do you sail your Tornado, Rebel and Sunfish on? Just curious.

Alan Glos
Cazenovia, NY
 
We sail Long Lake near Traverse City. Gray and cold today. The end is near.

Rebel cleaned up nicely. Free, dirty old thing full of acorns, mice, dirt. Moldy deck. Sails are the very old blown out stuff.


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