roll tack help

[MasterMike]

I practiced a couple hours of tacking Saturday to figure out the roll tack. Everything is getting a bit better - the biggest error seems to oversteering, nearly every time. It defeats all the gains of a good tack, causing you to correct again back to close-hauled and eliminating your momentum.

The steps in the order I was practicing were:
-heal to leeward to begin round up
-tiller extension bent through mainsheet gap to begin turning
(here I think I may be too sudden in my turning, slowing the boat down)
-sheet in as I heal the boat towards me (windward) to keep the sail full
-heal the boat way down to windward as the boom comes across
(this is still hard to get yourself used to if you've ever gone in backwards)
-stand up / move up to the new rail
(here may be the trouble - I see people with their tiller hand grabbing the rail to help pull themselves up. The tiller is still turned way over at this point)
-somewhere in here I am sheeting out a bit
-sit on the new rail (tiller hand behind you) and heal it down, but not too fast
-sheet in as it comes down flat and the apparent wind moves forward.

Now, most times I did all these things reasonably well, but nearly every time, as I switched sides I still had the tiller turned and continued to turn way past close hauled, ruining the acceleration.

What am I doing or not doing at the right time?
Thanks-

 

[Chainsaw]

(here may be the trouble - I see people with their tiller hand grabbing the rail to help pull themselves up. The tiller is still turned way over at this point)

Another problem with this method in very light wind is that it moves the weight of your torso back to leeward too soon and ruins the fluid motion of the roll.

Generally i reach for the toe strap if I'm feeling sluggish...or have slipped on my feet (yeah that sounds better...I "slipped"... )

As I understand it, the goal is to send the power down through your feet and "stand up" under the boom. Doing squats of some sort or stair running is good to build your leg muscles for this.

 

[whirlwind2]

I practiced a couple hours of tacking Saturday to figure out the roll tack. Everything is getting a bit better - the biggest error seems to oversteering, nearly every time. It defeats all the gains of a good tack, causing you to correct again back to close-hauled and eliminating your momentum.

The steps in the order I was practicing were:
-heal to leeward to begin round up
-tiller extension bent through mainsheet gap to begin turning
(here I think I may be too sudden in my turning, slowing the boat down)

What am I doing or not doing at the right time?
Thanks-

This isn't going to make your roll tacks perfect, but I thought I might add that I've heard that it is not necessary to heal to leeward to start the turn. I don't know why you shouldn't except that this is what the rooster sailing DVD says.
As for the steering, you should move the till at the same rate as you are turning. ie. When you first begin the turn you should move the tiller slowly and as your rate of turn accelerates, you should put the tiller over harder.
Hope this helps.

 

[sailchris]

The most important thing about roll tacking that was beaten into me by my college coach is not to roll the boat to windward too early. The windward roll should not happen until you get to head-to-wind, i.e. you wait to roll until the front of the sail starts to luff.
And he also said the leeward roll was unnecessary...just steer the boat up into the wind slowly to make as much headway to windward as possible.

 

[phosphor]

I've been told to gradually put the tiller over harder as well, but something seems to be contradicting in my mind. Why not keep a shallower tiller angle and extend the distance to which you are sailing directly upwind? If you're rolling the boat efficiently you should be able to keep good speed for a bit and climb up. I understand this may not result in quite as much acceleration after the tack but is it possible that the distance made good on the mark would offset that? *shrug* I'm just some crazy person that thinks about sailing too much.

 

[Bernard_Bill]

this sould Help-you?
http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=4thdim&Store_Code=1

 

[LPW]

i think u mean this one :

http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=tack&Store_Code=1

 

[MasterMike]

Thanks - I had to go to hints and tips and find tacking. Always good advice on Rooster. Maybe the video portion will be usefull - I'll check it.

My question is more about tiller position during the tack, and why I am turning way past the normal tacking angle. In order to push the extension through the mainsheet gap, it is bent out (to leeward) which I think might be causing a too sudden turning moment initially. Then, the rudder stays turned while you're fiddling with healing to windward, etc.

Is there a point at which you should flick the extension (reverse the angle of extension to tiller) so that the rudder comes back straight while you are switching sides? There must be something I was missing, because the boat continued to turn until I was healing it back to flat, because of where my tiller hand was.

 

[MasterMike]

bump..
I looked at the Rooster videos - hard to see the tiller issue on a Europe when he's switching facing aft.

Two questions -

1. At what point do you all bring the rudder back to straight in the process? Where is your tiller hand? (OK, three questions)

2. Are you hiking the boat to windward with the strap, or are you using your foot and weight placement once you've switched sides?

Thanks -

 

[Old Geezer]

bump..
I looked at the Rooster videos - hard to see the tiller issue on a Europe when he's switching facing aft.

Two questions -

1. At what point do you all bring the rudder back to straight in the process? Where is your tiller hand? (OK, three questions)

2. Are you hiking the boat to windward with the strap, or are you using your foot and weight placement once you've switched sides?

Thanks -

1. I used to have the same problem as you, oversteering in the tack. I just went out and practiced centering the tiller earlier in the process. Look at your wake after every practice tack and you will see if you have turned through the correct angle or have steered some wild S course because you have to correct your oversteering on every tack.

2, Before the tack lift your aft foot over the hiking strap. Then when you cross the boat this (now front) foot will go under the strap and if necessary you will be able to hike and flatten the boat before you switch hands. (Hope that answers your second question. It was a little unclear to me what you meant.)

 

[MasterMike]

Thanks - Yes, the dreaded S wake, J turn, wasted distance. Practice practice practice.

#2 - I am doing the foot switchover, which works well and gets you mentally set up to start the tack.

What I meant to ask was whether people are physically hiking the boat down to (the old) windward while still in the strap (which sometimes puts me nearly upside down!) or whether you are using your weight placement as you switch sides.

 

[sailchris]

I don't understand why you are "bending the tiller extension through the mainsheet gap" before you cross the boat. I take the tiller extension through the "mainsheet gap" in my tiller hand as I stand up across the boat.

Here are the steps that I think I go through in a roll tack (I am a big guy, so you may need to modify the steps to get enough roll if you are lighter):

Start position is sitting forward, feet in the cockpit, butt on the deck opposite the centerboard, mainsheet in front hand, tiller extension in back hand. Boat flat or slightly heeled to leeward.

Maintain boat speed (i.e. don't start a tack when speed is down).

Steer gently towards the wind by pushing the tiller extension away.

As boat approaches head to wind, increase rate of steering by pushing tiller extension away more.

Keep boat flat by leaning weight to leeward as the boat turns.

When boat crosses head to wind (front of sail begins to luff), initiate windward roll quickly and aggressively by moving body backwards and outwards with front foot under the hiking strap and butt on outside edge of deck. This is a really quick move that starts the boat rolling.

As boat begins to roll, quickly lean torso across the boat and bring front hand behind body (back hand is still holding the tiller extension and still maintaining turning angle).

As boat nears maximum roll, step upwards towards the new windward side with weight on front foot. As you step upwards, get your old back foot in position to be under the strap. Front foot is jammed into the front corner of the cockpit.

At maximum roll, pivot body around front foot. The boat should now be turned to, or almost past the new closehauled course. In extreme situations the rudder will be out of the water, or almost out of the water, at this point.

While boat is heeled, ease mainsheet (still held in front hand), take tiller extension in mainsheet hand (behind back) and flatten the boat hard (using old back foot/new front foot under the strap if necessary), take mainsheet in new front hand, move weight to leeward to stop flattening roll, trim main.

 

[MasterMike]

By that I only meant that I am pushing / kinking the extension to leeward so that it clears the mainsheet at the block. Perhaps I am pushing it away too soon and too far because of that. The oversteering and slowing may be caused at the very beginning.

Your description is good and makes sense.

But, why "... and bring front hand behind body"? The front hand still has the sheet and stays in front of you until you switch hands later.

"... initiate windward roll quickly and aggressively by moving body backwards and outwards with front foot under the hiking strap and butt on outside edge of deck. This is a really quick move that starts the boat rolling." "As boat nears maximum roll, step upwards towards the new windward side with weight on front foot."

This answers my question - I have sometimes hiked it too far while still over the rail and end up with my butt in the water. The weight on the front foot is what is continuing the roll. I may have to exaggerate that some due to 150 lbs. Thanks.

 

[sailchris]

But, why "... and bring front hand behind body"? The front hand still has the sheet and stays in front of you until you switch hands later.

This is the start of the movement of the front hand behind your body to get it in position for the hand switch. You can also slide the sheet through your hand as you move it backwards (maintaining the position of the sheet in the ratchet) to allow you to ease the sheet as you flatten the boat.