Right-of-way

Was I right or wrong?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 52.6%
  • No

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • It depends

    Votes: 8 42.1%

  • Total voters
    19

R Armstrong

SailorSnort
Last weekend I slammed my Laser into another essentially brand new laser, and feel terrible. However, I still haven't decided whether I was right or wrong.
I was on a Starboard tack in 20 knots of wind pointing as high as I could. The other board was on an equal port tack. As we were approaching, it was apparent we were going to collide with me hitting the forward quarter of his starboard side. I had the right-of-way so held my course waiting for him to adjust.
When it became apparent to me that he was not going to make a move to avoid collision, I came off to pass astern of his boat at the last possible moment. Unfortunately, he simultaneously started a tack turn, slowing/stopping his boat and taking away any turning room I had behind him. I connected with the aft quarter starboard side of his boat with a mighty "crack".
After taking the boats back to the beach, he told me I should have held my course as he was tacking to avoid collision. I'm a fairly new sailor and I'm wondering if this is simply a matter of confidence. My perception of the last moment to avoid collision may be much earlier than his.
So...was I right or wrong to try to cut behind him, given I had right of way?
Thanks for your opinions....it will go a long way to a) restore my confidence, and/or b) allow me to learn something from this.:confused:
 
Poll's a bit hard to do. If I vote Yes, then you were either right or wrong. If I vote NO, then you were neither right or wrong.

FWIW, I think you were right. Did you hail him? If you had held your course and he did the same tack at the same time, would you have hit him?

It appears to me you were attempting to avoid, after holding the right of way. I feel that attempting to avoid would be a more desirable course of action than holding your course. And of course you were never off starboard.
 
In such strong winds, it's better to be safe than sorry. That's twenty-twenty hindsight of course, and I apologize in advance.
Some communication on the water might have prevented the incident, but I know from my own (in)experience that that may be hard when you are barely in control in strong winds. And screaming might not have alerted the other sailor to the looming disaster.

From your description, being on starboard tack, it seems that you tried to prevent a collision. Too bad it happened anyway, but unfortunately 'stuff happens'. More so when you are racing.

To transform this issue into an RRS quiz, we would need to hear the other side of the story as well. Just my opinion, of course.
 
You cannot bear off to prevent a collision.

Tiller toward trouble.

A Laser tacks so quickly, you can slam a tack and avoid contact even when that tack is begun inches from the gunwale of the other boat.

when you bear off, you generally accelerate and increase the damages upon impact.

Just as at the weather mark, if you bear off and fail to ease the sail, you turn very slowly or even round back up.

If two l sailboats bear away simultaneously to avoid a collision they will generally collide ferociously

if two sailboats blow their sheets and bear off, their masts may collide.

If some old fart sailor with a new boat is on the other tack and you are relatively new to the game....it might be a really good idea to turn and go "the right direction."

There is absolutely nothing about any pickle dish you may receive at any trophy presentation that is so worthwhile or important it is worth hitting and damaging a sailboat to secure it for yourself.
 
I would have hailed at about 8 boatlengths out. If he got into my comfort zone I would have tacked to avoid and protested.
 
I would have hailed at about 8 boatlengths out. If he got into my comfort zone I would have tacked to avoid and protested.

That's probably the best all around answer. I just hate a protest.

Truth be known, I'd prolly hail, then tack and not protest. Life's too short unless there's money on the line, and in my world, that ain't the case :D
 
Thanks for all the great responses. After looking over your thoughts and talking to our club Laser lead, it is apparent that just tacking away would have been the appropriate course. He pointed out the obvious (after I went out and consciously thought about it) that bearing off in a laser in strong winds is a slow process (at least when you are screaming into another boat) unless you are highly skilled.
Live and learn!
 
yes but i thought u had to avoid a collision at all costs when you are able to...

Port giving way to Starboard is a law of sailing, but avoiding a collision is a more fundamental law, the right-of-way laws are there to tell people what to do when a collision may happen. You cannot actually be penalised under the avoiding collision law unless you cause damage or injury, and then it should be proven that avoiding a collision was "reasonably possible". It would come down to interpretation as to whether making the wrong decision as to where to turn constitutes breaking this law.

Personally, in this case, I would have a moan that the other boat did not make his intentions clear (by clear movements or by hailing that he/she will tack before you) and I believe you cannot be blamed for the collision. You manoeuvred in good faith believing that he was not changing course do to his inaction and although maybe a tack would have been the more sensible thing to do, in the heat of the moment you acted on what you saw before you. It was his/her responsibility to keep clear and make his/her intentions clear to allow you not to hit them.

It is always useful to let other boats know what you are going to do both when you have right-of-way and when you are keeping clear - it helps prevent nasty incidents
 
In a protest situation, your chances are rarely above 50%, irrespective of the situation.

As the other boat is a port tacker, his obligation is to give way to you. You also have an obligation to hold your course to so that they can take avoiding action. If you alter your course and inhibit them, then you are in the wrong. Further at the time of the collision, you were windward and had to avoid the collision.

Your argument in a protest is that you took avoiding action when you believed that a collision was likely.
However, his counter argument would be that he had taken avoiding action by tacking, further, that he had completed his tack in and had become leeward boat and that you were now the give way boat and either that there was sufficient time after he had completed his tack for him to argue that his rights would come into play or by your action of not holding course had caused the collision, probably the former would be the better argument.

In a protest situation, don't be surprised if both of you were disqualified or that he won the protest. In a protest situation, it's not who was in the right or who was in the wrong, but who can convince the protest committee with their story. Hailing on the water helps, but it's not mandatory.

What you should have done was either call them through from a long way out if you wanted to stay on starboard tack or when the collision was likely, tacked onto port. By you attempting to go behind them, indicates to me that a collision was less likely than you were indicating.
 
If you would have held starboard (and hailed the port tack boat of your starboard rights) you would have been in the clear, but your change of your course without immediate communication kind of makes it a difficult situation. I would still say you were still in the clear because he took quite a gamble getting that close to you on port tack but thats just my call with out seeing it on the water.
 
If you would have held starboard (and hailed the port tack boat of your starboard rights) you would have been in the clear, but your change of your course without immediate communication kind of makes it a difficult situation. I would still say you were still in the clear because he took quite a gamble getting that close to you on port tack but thats just my call with out seeing it on the water.




A hail is not required in this situation


10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of
a starboard-tack boat.


14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.
However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat
is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact
that causes damage or injury.
 
If you would have held starboard (and hailed the port tack boat of your starboard rights) you would have been in the clear, but your change of your course without immediate communication kind of makes it a difficult situation. I would still say you were still in the clear because he took quite a gamble getting that close to you on port tack but thats just my call with out seeing it on the water.

The port tacker didn't make his intentions clear neither. Usually you will get a call of 'hold your course' or 'wwwwwwhhhhhaaaaaaaaarrrrrr!!!!!!' depending of how much control the other sailor is in

Regarding communication, I also race RORC mainly on 72' Challengers, in which case hailing starboard at another boat is not really practical.

If the other boat (port tacker) has sailed close enough with no display of intent that you think it necessery to take avoiding action then I would see that as the other boat encroaching on your 'water' in which case you cant be blamed as you are taking action to avoid a collision. The other boat cannot encroach on your water on the wrong tack and then tack around.

In a Laser in highwinds it is better just to throw the rudder over and jam the boat head to wind/tack as you are already close hauled, however it does need a quick judgement call as this will more or less stop the boat dead (possibly infront of the other boat). Bearing away requires more actions, easing the main quickly otherwise the boat wont bare off and will probably end up capsizing. Even more so in big boats. I was out with a crew of trainees a few weeks ago on a 72', had the helm hard over to bare away whilst fully sheeted in demonstrating what happens. Its this that causes a majority of start line collisions in big boat sailing. BT Global Challenge 2000/2001 (?) Wellington Leg Start where 'Quadstone' plaughed into 'Save The Children' (I admit they are 72' and best part of 50 tons of 6mm mild steel, however the physics are basicly the same)
 
You could have luffed up and/or tacked provided that there was room to do so, then protested him if he forced you to alter course while he was on port tack or before he completed his tack.
 
Read AlanD's post. You were on starboard and you did not hold your course. He tried to lee bow you and you changed course and hit him. Your fault.
If you held your course and he failed to keep clear and the boats touched then his fault.
If there is no collision then he can claim he kept clear and it is hard to win a protest.
Some sailers push the rules and some don't. Most of us don't even know most of the rules or may think we do but they have changed.
Timb
 
As the other boat is a port tacker, his obligation is to give way to you. You also have an obligation to hold your course to so that they can take avoiding action. If you alter your course and inhibit them, then you are in the wrong. Further at the time of the collision, you were windward and had to avoid the collision.
I don't agree with the last part of this. At the point of collision the other boat was tacking and therefore has to keep clear. If you were disqualified for causing the collision, then the other boat must get disqualified too for failing to keep clear.

There are two separate issues here:

1) Who should be disqualified (definitely the other boat - they forced you to change course when you had right of way; possibly you - you failed to prevent a collision and that collision caused damage)

2) Whose fault was it (mostly the other boat - they did not make it clear what they were going to do; partly you - you took the wrong action)

The other boat cannot blame you entirely, however under the letter of the law, you may both be penalised.
 
Read AlanD's post. You were on starboard and you did not hold your course. He tried to lee bow you and you changed course and hit him. Your fault.
If you held your course and he failed to keep clear and the boats touched then his fault.
If there is no collision then he can claim he kept clear and it is hard to win a protest.
Some sailers push the rules and some don't. Most of us don't even know most of the rules or may think we do but they have changed.
Timb

It becomes difficult to pass judgement on the original poster's incident as so much would depend on distances/speeds/positions involved.

However, another consideration is Rule 14 - which places an obligation on a right-of-way boat. And this is important as part b) of this rule states A boat shall avoid contact with another boat ... However, a right-of-way boat ... b) shall not be penalised under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury. In 20 knots of wind I would imagine hammering into the side of another boat (even beating) would certainly risk damage and injury. The question comes in whether you reacted too soon and the exact positions/speeds of yourself and port tacker. If you headed down before he started to tack then there is a good argument that, had he continued on port he would have maintained speed and you would have cleared him. In tacking he would have slowed in a big way (in terms of his original course) which would have messed-up your avoidance.

There are always several "actions" and some might be better than others but always the detailed situation makes it difficult for others not there to judge from brief accounts. It may be that you really wanted to stay on starboard (tactical considerations, wind, position on leg, etc.) and hence your preference to bear away - which would minimise damage to your race and I would say is reasonable. I would agree with others that tacking would be a safer way to avoid a collision but so much comes down to timing and the details of the situation. For example, if you have seen the guy regularly looking at you under his boom then he knows you are there so fair chance he will be doing something. If he is busy trying to find a dry match to light a wet cigarette having untangled his mainsheet ... then reasonable chance he is unaware of you.

Being realistic, had you tacked, any protest would have been within the rules but probably not appropriate to a club race and almost certainly not in "the spirit" of what everybody goes out to do at a weekend. Had the boat on port not seen you then I would hope he would have done a 720 after you tacked (but you can't always be certain).

Protests are pretty much a waste of time unless there are decent witnesses or it is very black and white. Sounds like in your case it would be a matter of you saying how close you were before you realised port tack boat was not going to keep clear. Other boat would say how there was plenty of room and he was just doing a lee-bow. And without witnesses protest committee would have no way of establishing who was "right" and in my experience would penalise both boats. Not suggesting either helm would by lying - just seeing things from a different perspective.

One club I sail at has never in its existence (decently over 50 years) has a protest with a club race (regattas - yes, but not for club racing).

Ian

Ian
 
I don't agree with the last part of this. At the point of collision the other boat was tacking and therefore has to keep clear. If you were disqualified for causing the collision, then the other boat must get disqualified too for failing to keep clear.

Possibly, but it will depend on who can convince the jury. The port tacker can argue
  1. He tacked what should have been wll below the starboard tacker
  2. Bring up that the starboard tacker altered course and was hunting you
  3. Had completed their tack before the collision and only occurred due to the actions of the original starboard tackers actions
Point 1 & 2 should be enough of an argument in itself under rule 16.1 changing course.
But Point 3 takes the incident beyond the original port starboard situation and into a new incident covering rule 12 & 11

If they convince the jury of this, the original starboard tacker should be disqualified as he was now windward boat and had to keep clear.

Obviously the starboard tacker will attempt to counter argue that he was
  1. The port tacker didn't appear to be tacking avoiding action
  2. That the starboard tacker opted to go behind the transom of the port tacker to avoid the likely collision
  3. The port tacker attempted to tack simultaneously and that tack was not completed when the collision occurred
In this case rules 10, 13 and 14 apply

It really depends on who can provide convince the jury of what occurred. The starboard tacker would more likely win a protest if he had tacked and protested that the port tacker did not appear to be taking avoiding action, but by bearing away, that becomes a much weaker protest if any contact is made. If the starboard tacker wanted to remain on starboard tack, he should have clearly called the other boat through.
 
Rule 16.1
When a right of way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
He changed course, there was a collision, His fault.
Timb
 
There is also rule 15: When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other
boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of
the other boat’s actions.

which would mean that the Starboard boat couldn't claim leeward-to-windward right-of-way (yet).

Timb: unfortunately the boat with right-of-way can be disqualified if he causes damage or injury (rule 14b).

On reflection, I think that the outcome should be a disqualification (or voluntary retirement) for both. The port-tack boat for forcing a boat with right-of-way to change course (rules 10, 13, 15), the starboard-tack boat for not preventing a collision and causing damage (rule 14b).
 
I have refrained from commenting on this as I believe I was the other boat involved in this incident.

However what I will say is that some of the advice offered here is very sound with the rule of thumb being 'tiller towards trouble' (as the boat will turn away from it).

At the end of the day both sailors were ok, both shaken as the conditions were pretty full on. The boats were insured so blame is a matter for them to sort out given the statements from both sides.

Please don't let it put you off sailing. When I was a novice I made some horrendous mistakes and usually ended up swimming or hitting another boat. At the end of the day mistakes, whether your fault or anothers fault, are how we learn in life and accidents do happen.
 
When I was racing Opti, I once was tacking onto a port tack at the starting line. The wind was blowing around 25 mph and there was some huge waves. A boat behind me tried to head up to follow the same way I was going, but hit me right as the race started. Basically, if he had held his course, we wouldn't have hit each other. In the end, he protested me (because that's what all of the inexperienced sailors at my club do) and actually won. I think protest committees should start looking more at the reasonable thing to do and less at the technical. Sure he was on starboard and I was on port, but turned that direction a few seconds before I tacked, causing it to be my fault. While it was happening couldn't possibly have 360 degree view when you I struggling to hold down the boat and get a good start. In the end, we all make mistakes. This one just ended with his boat having a chunk out of it, mine having a little piece missing, and me almost getting kicked out of the fleet for some foul language.
 
When I was racing Opti, I once was tacking onto a port tack at the starting line. The wind was blowing around 25 mph and there was some huge waves. A boat behind me tried to head up to follow the same way I was going, but hit me right as the race started. Basically, if he had held his course, we wouldn't have hit each other. In the end, he protested me (because that's what all of the inexperienced sailors at my club do) and actually won. I think protest committees should start looking more at the reasonable thing to do and less at the technical. Sure he was on starboard and I was on port, but turned that direction a few seconds before I tacked, causing it to be my fault. While it was happening couldn't possibly have 360 degree view when you I struggling to hold down the boat and get a good start. In the end, we all make mistakes. This one just ended with his boat having a chunk out of it, mine having a little piece missing, and me almost getting kicked out of the fleet for some foul language.

The protest committee is there to apply the letter of the law, not decide interpret what people should have done.

Depending on how it happened, there were a few rules possibly in effect. If you had completed your tack, he had passed head to wind but not come to a close hauled course yet, then he was at fault by rule 13 (Boats Tacking). If you had each passed head to wind, but not become close hauled, then you were in the wrong, because the boat towards the port side must stay clear (rule 13).

However, what it sounds like happened to me, is that you had established yourself on a port tack, and instead of maintaining his course he attempted to tack, and in doing so hit you. This falls under rule 16.1, A right of way boat changing course shall give another boat room to keep clear.

So unless you were both in the process of tacking (had passed head to wind) then he was at fault.
 

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