Return Sunfish Manufacturing to the USA

Would you support Sunfish production moving to the US?


  • Total voters
    9

jleonard99

Sunny Sailor
I would like to get everyone's thoughts and opinions on this. I have been reading numerous posts on the forum, where people have waited months for a Sunfish. There seems to be production/shipping problems somewhere along the line. I believe these problems could be fixed if the boat production line returned to the US. Does anyone know how much Laser Performance paid for the company, or rights to produce the Sunfish? An American boatmaker or group may be interested in starting to make them here. I would like to organize a group if possible to petition LP to return or sell the rights to Sunfish. I'm sure we have some lawyers on the forum who would be willing to help lay down the legal foundation of a company, that could be invested in by members. This forum contains some of the most knowledgeable and experienced Sunfish sailors that would be helpful in the future of the Sunfish. Together, we have a chance to bring the boat back into the spotlight of boating/sailing. I look forward to hearing responses and ideas.
 
The basic question is probably how much would you be willing to pay LP for the Sunfish rights? As we all know everything is for sale at the right price. You would probably have to pay to get the molds back from China as well. Next would be how much could you make by selling Sunfish boats? Does the price paid justify the expense of buying the rights, paying to set up manufacturing and the like?

Do you have money to put up to start this process? I believe there may be others willing to join in but I expect you would need to show how much money can be made from this business.
 
The basic question is probably how much would you be willing to pay LP for the Sunfish rights? As we all know everything is for sale at the right price. You would probably have to pay to get the molds back from China as well. Next would be how much could you make by selling Sunfish boats? Does the price paid justify the expense of buying the rights, paying to set up manufacturing and the like?

Do you have money to put up to start this process? I believe there may be others willing to join in but I expect you would need to show how much money can be made from this business.
Those are some excellent points, and I agree with all that you said. The key to the idea I have is to be able to return them, cover the cost of the intitial investment, but be able to keep the price similar to current so people can still enjoy and purchase them. I know that the sunfish support base is good, but to be able to make a deal, the investors would have to have more access to production amounts to sales, as well as time to create the product. The time would most likely stay the same, but employee costs in the USA could heavily impact cost. That is something that concerns me. I will have to contact LP to see if I can access any of this information. I heard a rumor they put out only around 70 boats last year, so at $5000 a boat if this is true, the revenue would be around $350,000. This makes me think this deal can be attainable, as the profit, cannot be too great, after subtracting overseas shipping costs, material cost, and salaries. As I said before, this forum contains some of the most knowledgeable Sunfish sailors. They know about the hulls, and impacts of different things on the boat to the most minute detail. With this information, we know what the boat will need, and if quality materials can be found a lower price, parts such as the spars, mast, and other parts, except the hull, we may be able to make a reasonable return. I know there is a lot of ifs and buts, but as information begins to come in, number can be put in place and this does have a chance of working. I appreciate your input, and hope you will continue to help and comment along this process that is being analyzed.
 
Supposedly they were making 1,000 or so boats a year before they sent the molds on their international trip. I bet with good marketing and sales support you could get the boats back up to maybe 1,500 or so per year in 3 or 4 years.
 
Although I voted in the above poll to return Sunfish manufacturing stateside, here are two things to consider:

1) The Market has already determined where new Sunfish will be manufactured. :(

2) China has strict laws against drugs; whereas new laws are being passed stateside to expand drug usage.

3) China has an immense "state-owned" freighter fleet piled-high with huge shipping containers. This is why I can buy a 50-pound iron vise for less than $50; whereas, I couldn't even ship it to a neighboring state for $50. :confused:

OK—three things...:rolleyes:
 
Supposedly they were making 1,000 or so boats a year before they sent the molds on their international trip. I bet with good marketing and sales support you could get the boats back up to maybe 1,500 or so per year in 3 or 4 years.
I believe that is correct, sunfish are well know among certain generations, and people remember them from when they grew up if they haven't used them since. That is something that has the possibility of being tapped into.
 
Remember on the sales price is that your $5,000 price for a Sunfish is what a dealer charges. The manufacturer gets much less and that also includes the mast, spars, blades and sail. My guess is the you have to sell a Sunfish for less than $4,000 to a dealer for them to make an adequate profit.
 
Although I voted in the above poll to return Sunfish manufacturing stateside, here are two things to consider:

1) The Market has already determined where new Sunfish will be manufactured. :(

2) China has strict laws against drugs; whereas new laws are being passed stateside to expand drug usage.

3) China has an immense "state-owned" freighter fleet piled-high with huge shipping containers. This is why I can buy a 50-pound iron vise for less than $50; whereas, I couldn't even ship it to a neighboring state for $50. :confused:

OK—three things...:rolleyes:
You have brought up some good points that must be considered. They also will be challenging for any group interested in returning the fish. Sadly you are correct on the drug laws, I wish the US would take a much harder stance on that, but with correct management and screening process for employees, we can get the best available. A company policy could also prevent drug usage and terminate any suspicious employees immediately. Shipping is definitely a problem, but with new online and logistics program, transportation cost should lower in the future, as there always has to be a return trip and that can be tapped into for a lower rate once the availability is found. The market does play a large role on this issue, but if Trump does place a tariff on Chinese made goods going into the US the playing field may be leveled. Also Made in USA is good for marketing. Thank you for your feedback and you brought up some good challenging points that will have to be overcome. Please continue to mention things such as this, because they need to be discussed ahead of time.
 
I would suspect it would be difficult to keep costs under $5k per unit, given the cost of materials, labor, etc. Probably a main reason production moved to China in the first place. Small boat retail costs and all boats in general has increased much than inflation, the last decade or more.
 
Remember on the sales price is that your $5,000 price for a Sunfish is what a dealer charges. The manufacturer gets much less and that also includes the mast, spars, blades and sail. My guess is the you have to sell a Sunfish for less than $4,000 to a dealer for them to make an adequate profit.
That is correct, but in todays market, I believe dealers or the middlemen are starting to be cut out of the process. Shipping methods have improved and online ordering and advertising can net customers just as easy or easier than a salesman. If that can be done, word of mouth can be very effective as it is in all businesses.
 
I would suspect it would be difficult to keep costs under $5k per unit, given the cost of materials, labor, etc. Probably a main reason production moved to China in the first place. Small boat retail costs and all boats in general has increased much than inflation, the last decade or more witnessed by working for boat dealerships since the late 80' s
 
I would suspect it would be difficult to keep costs under $5k per unit, given the cost of materials, labor, etc. Probably a main reason production moved to China in the first place. Small boat retail costs and all boats in general has increased much than inflation, the last decade or more witnessed by working for boat dealerships since the late 80' s
That may be the case with inflation, but the prices of all boats have gone up by quite a bit over time. This may be something that will have to happen with the fish even though I would love to keep it's current price if possible.
 
Y'know, when an existing product is "Very Good", The Market will decide where the product is made.

For example, VW has no longer imported their Westphalia Camper. The VW Euro camper concept (T4) is so good, that there are shops that make their living by buying used ones, and "refurbishing" to like-new. These "Very Good" models are more than 14 years old. (!) The newest VW camper is the T6, and is, again, unavailable in the US. (Even VW's "California" model). :rolleyes:

It's not just those VW campers that are 14 years old: I was shocked to see a like-new 1973 VW camper in a Florida Keys parking lot. Looking closer, an affixed label cited that the revitalized camper is available for rent from a Tampa "refurbisher". (Actually, a whole fleet of 'em)! :eek:

The point being, that there are a bazillion old Sunfish out there, and an enterprise could make money restoring old and damaged Sunfish. This would not just be an effort to make monetary returns from repairs and painting, but put out a "Very Good" product that would attract attention to existing fleets, raise the value of existing Sunfish—and perhaps revitalize the entire sailing nation. :)
 
Y'know, when an existing product is "Very Good", The Market will decide where the product is made.

For example, VW has no longer imported their Westphalia Camper. The VW Euro camper concept (T4) is so good, that there are shops that make their living by buying used ones, and "refurbishing" to like-new. These "Very Good" models are more than 14 years old. (!) The newest VW camper is the T6, and is, again, unavailable in the US. (Even VW's "California" model). :rolleyes:

It's not just those VW campers that are 14 years old: I was shocked to see a like-new 1973 VW camper in a Florida Keys parking lot. Looking closer, an affixed label cited that the revitalized camper is available for rent from a Tampa "refurbisher". (Actually, a whole fleet of 'em)! :eek:

The point being, that there are a bazillion old Sunfish out there, and an enterprise could make money restoring old and damaged Sunfish. This would not just be an effort to make monetary returns from repairs and painting, but put out a "Very Good" product that would attract attention to existing fleets, raise the value of existing Sunfish—and perhaps revitalize the entire sailing nation. :)
I like that idea a lot. I actually prefer that to my initial idea of bringing them back to the US. The initial investment cost would be much lower. This could be very successful, that is something with much less legal and logistical work required. These boats are beautiful and so well constructed, where it would be a hit. Would you be interested in joining me or helping with planning to start this type of venture? I would definitely be willing to invest and start something like this.
 
And remember new fish are competing with thousands+ used....hence why boat manufacturers are constantly "updating" current models and lines so they don't compete with the much lower prices used market. You can't do that with a popular class boat although mostly used by recreational users
 
I like that idea a lot. Would you be interested in joining me or helping with planning to start this type of venture? I would definitely be willing to invest and start something like this.
You've been looking for boats in South Carolina—a state that encourages business. :cool: What SC county would you propose to start this business?

Personally, I hate any kind of paperwork, but can visit twice a year—and can deliver a $300 complete, but worn, Sunfish each time. "Totally-Trashed" Sunfish still have expensive saleable parts and panels that can be used for major repairs. I might be able to deliver two trashed 'Fish twice a year. As for "investment", I'd have to think about this.

There's about 60 regular members of this site, and would like to hear their opinions. :)
 
You've been looking for boats in South Carolina—a state that encourages business. :cool: What SC county would you propose to start this business?

Personally, I hate any kind of paperwork, but can visit twice a year—and can deliver a $300 complete, but worn, Sunfish each time. "Totally-Trashed" Sunfish still have expensive saleable parts and panels that can be used for major repairs. I might be able to deliver two trashed 'Fish twice a year. As for "investment", I'd have to think about this.

There's about 60 regular members of this site, and would like to hear their opinions. :)
Oconee county it's in the upstate, with many surrounding lakes. People from Atlanta and nc are looking to buy boats as well. Paperwork is definitely annoying, if we just stuck with bills of sales it could work. Llc are also easy to make. I am interested in your deliver offer. Complete but worn is of interest to me, but totally trashed may be hard for me to work with and may take a larger percentage of investment. 300 is a good price to me and i will be able to purchase on a schedule if we could set something up. I'm looking forward to this, and will get back in town early August and be ready to start.
 
I see lots of man-made lakes in Oconee County. 'Should be rich territory--perhaps to made richer with Sunfish!

What would you name the LLC?Something easy for sailor to remember--on which to build a memorable reputation?

At best, the most Sunfish I could deliver would be four a year. (In two trips). How could you keep the doors open over a year's time?

Given an unlimited "flow" of such Sunfish, in a year's time, how many refurbished Sunfish could you expect to turn out?

Perhaps collecting restorable Sunfish until "enough" are stored would be a good start. Then hire a reliable teen over summer to go from hull to hull, sanding one repair while waiting for others to cure or dry.

"Enough" being 20 to 30?

BTW, to collect my Sunfish "donation", you'll have a 140-mile trip to Charlotte. You've got a trailer?
 
I see lots of man-made lakes in Oconee County. 'Should be rich territory--perhaps to made richer with Sunfish!

What would you name the LLC?Something easy for sailor to remember--on which to build a memorable reputation?

At best, the most Sunfish I could deliver would be four a year. (In two trips). How could you keep the doors open over a year's time?

Given an unlimited "flow" of such Sunfish, in a year's time, how many refurbished Sunfish could you expect to turn out?

Perhaps collecting restorable Sunfish until "enough" are stored would be a good start. Then hire a reliable teen over summer to go from hull to hull, sanding one repair while waiting for others to cure or dry.

"Enough" being 20 to 30?

BTW, to collect my Sunfish "donation", you'll have a 140-mile trip to Charlotte. You've got a trailer?
I would definitely make it an easy name to remember, haven't thought of it yet. I do have a jet ski trailer that can pull two sunfish at a time as well as a suburban, which could hold one on the top. As far as storage I have a good sized lot, and a workshop area inside to store and work on the boats. My speed will vary but I could do several at a time, I can drop a boat 20 pounds in about three weeks. I am willing to go through as many as I can hold. I have a lot of free time and could do most of the work myself. Maybe get a friend to help if we got a lot of boats. I will go to auto body places to watch their tactics and learn how to repair and get the paint looking beautiful. If you could pm your number I would like to discuss this on the phone with you and that would be a good way to send pictures of the boats back and forth. I'm at a concert waiting for it to start now but I can talk on the phone tomorrow or whenever works for you.
 
Sun Salvage :-D

btw autobody places typically don't do gel work, unless it's on vettes, etc..
 
How much are you planning to sell these boats for? If you plan to compete with new boats, which sell for the low $4,000s when available, you will need to buy new centerboards, sails, lines, possibly booms and masts, hiking straps, along with paying for the gelcoat you will be spraying. And when you are done, you will have a heavier boat (older boats weighed more and you are adding gelcoat) with some spider cracks, etc. you will have a hard time getting rid of. An old boat is still an old boat, so there is some ceiling as to what you can sell them for.
 
Need 3D printing to lower cost of manufacture. Suggest checking out
who retains Scorpian license then discussing with the company that printed
the 10 meter yacht what would be the total cost to print a Scorpian hull. Then you
would have to source out all the hardware, add labor costs, etc. You would
have some serious time into just doing the ground work.

World's First 10 Meter Long 3D Printed Yacht Hull | All3DP
 
Need 3D printing to lower cost of manufacture. Suggest checking out
who retains Scorpian license then discussing with the company that printed
the 10 meter yacht what would be the total cost to print a Scorpian hull. Then you
would have to source out all the hardware, add labor costs, etc. You would
have some serious time into just doing the ground work.

World's First 10 Meter Long 3D Printed Yacht Hull | All3DP
Interesting idea, I'll check it out.
 
How much are you planning to sell these boats for? If you plan to compete with new boats, which sell for the low $4,000s when available, you will need to buy new centerboards, sails, lines, possibly booms and masts, hiking straps, along with paying for the gelcoat you will be spraying. And when you are done, you will have a heavier boat (older boats weighed more and you are adding gelcoat) with some spider cracks, etc. you will have a hard time getting rid of. An old boat is still an old boat, so there is some ceiling as to what you can sell them for.
Depends on what the boat turns out to be but for boats before 1987 I believe the price would cap around 1750 or so. What do you think. If anyone can supply me with boats to work on please let me know.
 
Sun Salvage :-D

btw autobody places typically don't do gel work, unless it's on vettes, etc..
Autobody shops have some neat tricks before painting to make a perfect paint job. :cool: It would make sense to paint three or more Sunfish at a time, due to the expense and necessity of cleaning the equipment. 'Course, it helps to paint in an enclosed shop, without bugs and pine needles landing on your final coat! :confused:

Hardware replacements would be best done through the bottom of the hull, as buyers are more interested in a perfect deck (top). Most older Sunfish will have scratches underneath-- scratches that can be hidden with a special autobody filler paste. I can't speak to refinishing gelcoat, as the well-finished repairs I've done don't show.

You'll need a compressor--the bigger the tank, the better. Moisture-removing filters, long hoses, orbital sanders, sabersaws, and lots of blades. I've seen ads for excellent US-made (DeVylbiss) spray painting equipment from people leaving the business. New stuff made in Asia is nearly as good, and much cheaper to buy. With the increased cost of the necessary paint thinners, paint three Sunfish, and throw the used paint-sprayer out!

Why not try a few restorations, to get the feeling for prices. Store your finished products until Spring, when pricing is best.
 
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If you could pm your number I would like to discuss this on the phone with you and that would be a good way to send pictures of the boats back and forth.
I've started a "conversation", which I guess is the same as a PM. My number is included, and will add another member for this "made private" conversation. I'll add others as we progress along this line.

As you can see, there's a BIG benefit in BIG numbers of restored Sunfish. I'm all for full disclosure, including photographs, of each individual finished product.

As for the "ancillaries" of boards and rudders, I'd restore those too. Use of a router would make a big difference in appearance: let racers buy their personal choice of high-tech stuff.

Sand and paint masts. "Treatments" for halyards and other lines could reduce your costs. "Worn" lines would have to be replaced.
 
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I love my old Sunfish, but...
The new RS Neo will eventually hit the market at under $4000 with an un-breakable modern boat. (allegedly 3400 euros)
Sunfish are heavy and leak.

The rights to the design are questionable at best given that the molds are already in China and the the whole Laser -Kirby history.

A better option would be for us forum members to draw up a plan for a nice self bailing 14' sailboat and have a minor player like Intensity have the hull roto-molded by one of the factories that make roto-molded kayaks for $200. They could sell with an existing lateen or high aspect sail of 75 square feet. Maybe have a goal price of $2000 regular or $2400 race version. Race version meaning a small vang/cunningham and roller aluminium clam cleats with Holt ratchet block added.
 
The Sunfish huge numbers, fleets and solid reputation should win the day when cheaper genuine Sunfish alternatives are available. This fact is being demonstrated by the Vermont Sunfish "rehabilitator", here:
Deck Repair Suggestions | SailingForums.com

For example, in the 2 square miles of the lake I frequent, I can count on one Daysailer, one Zuma, and three Sunfish almost every weekend. :)

What I have in mind is not to prepare a good used Sunfish for the next 50 years, so much, as to rebuild interest in Sunfish sailing. There are too many Sunfish mouldering in back yards to let this opportunity go by. (And make a few bucks in the effort).

Add ports, dry 'em out, patch damage, test backing blocks, trim and varnish old wood, restore cosmetics, paint everything, add new sail--sell.

Then--sell the replaced used parts. :cool:
 
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What's odd..on ky lake....huge boating lake, the SMALL Sunfish fleet has evaporated. I've only seen one other fish in the water in the last 5 plus years. The fleet was basically a bunch of "donated free" boats that made for an adult " youth" program that only lasted a handfull of years. Basically no daysailors either. The lake is full of monster size boats that sit at the docks or occasionally anchored in the beautiful coves. Seadoos and fish or ski boats are the norm. I attest this to being "in the boonies" with no huge cities within 2 hrs. Its a weekend get away lake. The locals own jon boats. No fish rotting away at lake houses or backyards either. In a sense that's kinda wierd. The two scout camp's use them but only in their private setting coves. Even large sailboat racing has given out to coving out or air conditioned boats at the dock. What's nice though is the lake is void of boaters mon-fri. A 40 x 3 Mile lake is still a weekday secret
 
What's odd..on ky lake....huge boating lake, the SMALL Sunfish fleet has evaporated. I've only seen one other fish in the water in the last 5 plus years. The fleet was basically a bunch of "donated free" boats that made for an adult " youth" program that only lasted a handfull of years. Basically no daysailors either. The lake is full of monster size boats that sit at the docks or occasionally anchored in the beautiful coves. Seadoos and fish or ski boats are the norm. I attest this to being "in the boonies" with no huge cities within 2 hrs. Its a weekend get away lake. The locals own jon boats. No fish rotting away at lake houses or backyards either. In a sense that's kinda wierd. The two scout camp's use them but only in their private setting coves. Even large sailboat racing has given out to coving out or air conditioned boats at the dock. What's nice though is the lake is void of boaters mon-fri. A 40 x 3 Mile lake is still a weekday secret
Jet skis are really taking lakes by storm. I live on lake keowee and we have a lot of jet skis, powerboats, and 20+ Foot sailboats. Haven't seen too many sunfish accept occasionally sailing out from the sailing club.
 
Is that lake where Massachusetts' Jon LaPointe made all those headlines a few years ago?
We have at least a hundred lakes and ponds in Massachusetts. The only notable headlines I can remember was from Tenean Beach in South Boston where Whitey Bulger used to make people disappear. Locals used to tell the kids not to dig too deep in the sand.
 
Not a Massachusetts lake.

Massachusetts is where he collected 22 speeding tickets before taking his boat to another state.

Drunk, he took his 90-MPH speedboat for a night spin, but collided with two stargazing sweethearts, and killed them both.

Thrown out, he and his 16 year-old female passenger swam to shore. His boat continued onto the shoreline, running up a 125 foot embankment, to scatter a group having an outdoor BBQ.

(Didn't want to outright disclose the name of your lake--if I have the right lake--although it may have been much narrower).
 
Not a Massachusetts lake.

Massachusetts is where he collected 22 speeding tickets before taking his boat to another state.

Drunk, he took his 90-MPH speedboat for a night spin, but collided with two stargazing sweethearts, and killed them both.

Thrown out, he and his 16 year-old female passenger swam to shore. His boat continued onto the shoreline, running up a 125 foot embankment, to scatter a group having an outdoor BBQ.

(Didn't want to outright disclose the name of your lake--if I have the right lake--although it may have been much narrower).


Well, this certainly helps decide whether it makes sense to refurbish old Sunfish.
 

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