Class Politics Restricted Entry to Masters World Champs

This spring I read through my 2008 Laser class handbook/rule book. The Laser Master's Worlds "policy" is very poorly worded and I requested that the Laser World Council review it to try to clarify how the event is to be run. Everybody is divied up into the different age groups, and Laser vs. Laser Radial groups, but where "Women" fit into the whole thing is not clear. Yesterday I saw on the ILCA North American website they posted a system on how they propose to limit entries at the 2009 Laser Master's Worlds in Nova Scotia. Again, the qualification system posted on the ILCA North American website was very poorly worded, vague, really gave no pertinent information on how you qualify or how you register to get yourself a spot in the event.
For a different perspective on how an event should be run, see the Welcome Letter for the 2008 US Laser Masters on the New Bedford Yacht Club website. In addition, regatta chairman Roy Tangen said when the club was running the Buzzards Bay Regatta, they noticed that the regatta was being run for the convenience of the organizers, not the sailors. They reviewed their regatta management procedures to "rectify this."
I also find it interesting that you ask a country to host an event (Canada) and then have the gall to tell them that Canadian entries into the event will be restricted in some way. Were Australian entries limited at the 2008 Laser Master's Worlds?
The class is supposed to be run for the sailors, that includes ALL Laser sailors not just the Olympic-types. Why not consider making the Laser Master's Worlds a seperate event, not just something tacked onto the tail-end of the regular Laser Worlds? --Susie Pegel
 
Certainly if the class had any institutional memory and respect for its roots, the only woman ever to win the North American Laser Championships would be automatically invited to and have a place held open for her any masters regatta forever...


Please note:
We could easily have a boat ready and waiting for that woman any year she decides to come sail the Easter Laser Regatta
 
The ILCA is us.

There is no "their side."

If we don't like what our ILCA Employees are doing we need to direct our employees to provide different services.

Note: if you would like to involve yourself in the management of the game of Laser sailing all you need to do is offer and your fleet, your club, your district, and your region will accept your help with open arms.
It's great fun, you get to be a target for everybody who has nothing better to do than bitch.
 
Whoa! did the font get smaller or do I really really need glasses?

The ILCA is us.

There is no "their side."

Sorry for mis-phrasing... I used the term "their side" to mean the global ILCA system for allocating berths to the master's worlds, as opposed to "our side" meaning ILCA-NA region. In the end, the goal is to get as many of "us" into the available space in "our" event. And that is everyone's goal.
 
Whoa! did the font get smaller or do I really really need glasses?
Nah...You are just getting really old!!!


Sorry for mis-phrasing... I used the term "their side" to mean the global ILCA system for allocating berths to the master's worlds, as opposed to "our side" meaning ILCA-NA region. In the end, the goal is to get as many of "us" into the available space in "our" event. And that is everyone's goal.
I wish that were true. The point of my post above was too well hidden...I think, most of those who whine about allocations think it is somebody else's fault when we have a small allocation.

I could have pointed out that Tracy was one of "them" in his own posting.
He isn't. He's one of us. Way too few of the rest of you ever do a damn thing to share our game's necessary management chores.
He's one fellow who has only one allocated lifetime to spend on his sailing hobby.
He has been doing way more than his share of the management of the game for at last ten years while most of you have never even run your local show for a weekend.

Running the Laser sailing game is like picking up your socks or washing the dishes, somebody has to do it and most of you act as though you are spoiled brats and Tracy and Sherri are your doting parents.
if you sail for ten years, you damn sure ought to be fleet captain for one of those years or you are just a being a spoiled little brat. If teh fleet is so big you cannort get a gturn as captain, you need to run races, run regattas, teach new sailors, be a District secretary, be a National officer or be an international officer....or you can just be a leech.
The fact we have stuck one guy with a job 2000 of us should be doihjng a part of, shows just how selfish and lazy teh rest of you are.
I rferally don't give a rats patootie if this is a thread hijack. Once in a while somebody has to remind you, the game is only as good as we make it and those of you who contribnute nothing drag the rest of us down with you.
Go get involved.

and...No throwing out anybody who is already involved...There are plenty of jobs to go around.
If you can't find a job?? Invent one.
 
I have no problem with the allocations, and I have no problem with Canadians being limited to the number of entries in their own country. But there are zero (0) spots allocated to Canada!!! WTF??? I realize that spots will open up if countries don't use up all of their allocations, but why the hell wouldn't the host nation have spots allocated the same as any other? Now those of us from Canada won't even have anything near a confirmed spot until after July 24 when the extra spots are allocated. This might be fine for the people in the eastern half of the country, but for those of us on the west coast it doesn't leave much flexibility for booking plane tickets and accomodations. It's just as far for me to come as sailors from the UK, Spain, Caribbean, Brazil, etc. so why do we get stuck waiting???
 
I have no problem with the allocations, and I have no problem with Canadians being limited to the number of entries in their own country. But there are zero (0) spots allocated to Canada!!! WTF??? I realize that spots will open up if countries don't use up all of their allocations, but why the hell wouldn't the host nation have spots allocated the same as any other? Now those of us from Canada won't even have anything near a confirmed spot until after July 24 when the extra spots are allocated. This might be fine for the people in the eastern half of the country, but for those of us on the west coast it doesn't leave much flexibility for booking plane tickets and accomodations. It's just as far for me to come as sailors from the UK, Spain, Caribbean, Brazil, etc. so why do we get stuck waiting???

I don't know why ILCA chose to display it they way they did but in the initial allocation (remember, 350 available spots divided by some 85 countries with enough members to have at least one berth) the North American Region (Canada and the US) gets 35 spots. The entries are time ordered, so the first 35 between both countries are "in", the rest on both lists should all get in on the re-allocation rounds.

As I recall, within 48 hours of the opening of registration for Terrigal (there was no "application" period for that event) the entry limit had been reached with some 80% of the entries from Australia. At least this new system lets the rest of the world have a shot at entries before filling out the event with sailors from the host region!

Also, note that if the total limit of 350 is not reached before November 13 (the end of the "application" period) then, if I understand the system correctly, everyone on the application lists, regardless of country, is "in."

Finally, let's not forget that traditionally the host region has always been some 1/2 to 2/3 of the entries. So, have faith that if the entries go over the limit we'll still get a very large number of people into the event.

Having said all of this, if you want to go then please go through the "application for entry" process before November 13!
 
If the 35 entries are split between Canada and the US that's all fine, but then it would have made more sense to show them together. As it stands, there are 188 entries already and it's still the opening day of registration in my time zone. 94 applications are in for Canada and the US combined, so I will be very curious to see how this shakes down over the next few weeks (or days):D.
 
What Tracy did not mention was that it was ILCA who messed up the Terrigal entry. The Australian Laser class requested ILCA to limit Australian entries but the ILCA President directed that ILCA not limit entries (as I was told by the Australian organisers). What we have now IMHO is an over reaction by ILCA to a mess it created itself.:mad:

You should also be aware that the Canada USA application lists will be combined in order of application date/time and the 35 spots are for the whole of NA Region at the moment. I would suggest the odds of getting an entry are good but almost zero for getting a charter boat. :(
 
Doubtful as applications actually started around Midnight UK time on Sept 15. The 35 spots were probably taken on Sept 14. I got on line at 5:05 pm MDT and was the second Canadian on the Canada list.
 
Rob,

You can check where you are in the entry order by clicking on Application List and then expand the US section on the same web page where you signed up.
 
I applied within 30 minutes of the application form being released, and I was already 12th Australian. You have to be quick!

But the way things are looking now, I suspect almost everyone will get a spot in the first allocation and ultimately everyone who applies before the closing date in November will get to go. The early rush for entries has finished, and there'll probably just be a steady trickle of applications from now until the closing date in November. It looks like the overall subscription will be under 400 and a decent number of those won't take up their entry when it comes time to actually pay up.
 
TonyB;52793It looks like the overall subscription will be under 400 and a decent number of those won't take up their entry when it comes time to actually pay up.[/QUOTE said:
That's what I'm thinking. That 150 pounds sterling, whatever it works out to in US dolllars ($300 or so?), will literally make people put their money where their mouth is. That, and the charter deposit.
 
The site now shows Canada and US applications combined under the heading "North America" which at least removes some of the confusion, and gives a clearer idea as to your chances of getting a spot.

As far as charter boats go, the web site states that "Charter boats will be offered to sailors with an entry, based on distance from the venue with extra consideration made for sea crossings. Charter boats will not be issued to sailors from North America until after 2 March 2009." Hard to say how many charter boats will be available, but this seems reasonable enough. I will concede that it's probably easier to get a container sent 5000 + miles by rail rather than by sea.
 
I don't know why ILCA chose to display it they way they did but in the initial allocation (remember, 350 available spots divided by some 85 countries with enough members to have at least one berth) the North American Region (Canada and the US) gets 35 spots. The entries are time ordered, so the first 35 between both countries are "in", the rest on both lists should all get in on the re-allocation rounds.

As I recall, within 48 hours of the opening of registration for Terrigal (there was no "application" period for that event) the entry limit had been reached with some 80% of the entries from Australia. At least this new system lets the rest of the world have a shot at entries before filling out the event with sailors from the host region!

Also, note that if the total limit of 350 is not reached before November 13 (the end of the "application" period) then, if I understand the system correctly, everyone on the application lists, regardless of country, is "in."

Finally, let's not forget that traditionally the host region has always been some 1/2 to 2/3 of the entries. So, have faith that if the entries go over the limit we'll still get a very large number of people into the event.

Having said all of this, if you want to go then please go through the "application for entry" process before November 13!


First 35 are in??

What happened to the NA masters Allocation system for the 2009 Worlds??

If we are going to give our spaces according to a merit system, why would we have the first 35 spots go to the first 35 who hapened to register on the first day of teh registration period...which closes months and months before the actual event??.

Let's simply look at everybody who registers before the deadline and then allocate those spaces properly.

Isn't thast what the NA Laser site says we are planning to do with our limited spaces?
 
My compliments to the North American Laser Class management for creating such a well thought out system....

Yeah right.

Basically, those 35 who registered earliest on the first day, regardless of their skills, get to fill North America's limited positions. .

The wonderful system set up for allocating North American's limited 35 places has a number of great features. Here are a few:

1. 35 year olds are not allowed to enter. Anyone who is 35 this year cannot possibly get a spot as previous Masters racing experience is a criteria.

2. Our champions are being given no special consideration. The following sailors have applied but are not among the first 35 North American Registrants and, despite their credentials, may not be given a space for the 2009 event.

Past World Champions: Doug Peckover, Peter Seidenberg, Mark Bear, Henry De Wolfe,

Recent North American Champions division or overall:
Peckover, Bear, De Wolfe, Bear, Eric Faust, Fred Schroth, Scott Young, Chris Raab, Alden Shattuck

3. The registration "period" is a misleading name for a few minutes followed by a few weeks of essentially closed registration. There are over 160 almost certainly qualified applicants ahead of anyone who has not yet registered or who is waiting for his number from the ISAF ( I still have not received my ISAF confirmation but I did successfully browse their incoming database and find what my number will be when it is eventually issued or I still would not ahve been allowed to register my application)


Seriously. What sort of fruitcake logic allowed the NA Class "management" to set up a system where the current two time North American Chamnpion not only fails to receive an automatic berth but...unless he manages to be at a computer in the first two hours of the advertised two month long registration period, will not be invited to represent North America at the worlds?
 
OK. I'll ask....

Fred, you make a strong point. While I want to sail the Worlds I understand there are a LOT of US Master sailors that rank way higher than I do and there is a possibility that many of them may not be able to compete because they were not gluded to their computer in the wee hours on the morning.

So, other than making the event unlimited to the number of entires how would you propose they handle the entry system? Strictly on rank alone? If so, how long do you hold spots for the higher ranked sailors? or do you bump lower ranked sailors as higher ranked ones sign up? If you go that route what kind of registration deadlines do you impose?
 
My compliments to the North American Laser Class management for creating such a well thought out system....

Yeah right.

Basically, those 35 who registered earliest on the first day, regardless of their skills, get to fill North America's limited positions. .

The wonderful system set up for allocating North American's limited 35 places has a number of great features. Here are a few:

1. 35 year olds are not allowed to enter. Anyone who is 35 this year cannot possibly get a spot as previous Masters racing experience is a criteria.

2. Our champions are being given no special consideration. The following sailors have applied but are not among the first 35 North American Registrants and, despite their credentials, may not be given a space for the 2009 event.

Past World Champions: Doug Peckover, Peter Seidenberg, Mark Bear, Henry De Wolfe,

Recent North American Champions division or overall:
Peckover, Bear, De Wolfe, Bear, Eric Faust, Fred Schroth, Scott Young, Chris Raab, Alden Shattuck

3. The registration "period" is a misleading name for a few minutes followed by a few weeks of essentially closed registration. There are over 160 almost certainly qualified applicants ahead of anyone who has not yet registered or who is waiting for his number from the ISAF ( I still have not received my ISAF confirmation but I did successfully browse their incoming database and find what my number will be when it is eventually issued or I still would not ahve been allowed to register my application)


Seriously. What sort of fruitcake logic allowed the NA Class "management" to set up a system where the current two time North American Chamnpion not only fails to receive an automatic berth but...unless he manages to be at a computer in the first two hours of the advertised two month long registration period, will not be invited to represent North America at the worlds?


I don't know what to make of posts like this... other than to be reminded of the immortal words from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Don't Panic.

First of all, there has ALWAYS been a limit to the number of boats that could sail in a Master Worlds and entry has ALWAYS been first come first serve. Both Roses and Terrigal "sold out" within days of entries opening - and for those you had to pay real money right up front. Still, in the end, everyone who was serious about going did get in. And I'm sure it will be true for this event with my prediction that North America will represent something between 1/2 to 2/3 of the total entries. That's many more than have "applied for entry" so far.

The motivation behind the system for North America was discussed in great detail way back in May (for example, see point #3 of this post from the beginning of this thread) when we (ILCA-NA) were first officially notified of the new allocation scheme (though we didn't know at that time what the actual allocation would be). I have yet to see anything that is truly flawed in that, unless you really believe there is something magical about being in the first 35. Remember, that number is set based on ILCA membership worldwide, some 80+ countries - of which only 20, so far, have at least one entry. When the initial allocations end on November 1 the number 35 will cease to have any meaning as it is automatically increased to fill out all available spots.

A different discussion is what sort of system should be implemented for the future? The Australians are in much the same position as North America, with a large geographical area and many sailors not necessarily able to attend qualifying regattas. As I understand it, they have adopted a hybrid system where they split their allocation, awarding berths to top finishers, leaving the rest open to the "first come first serve system".

That is a good system though I think there are some difficulties in transporting it to North America, with the primary issue being that we don't differentiate between Standard and Radial divisions in our Master's Regattas, making it difficult to develop a non-arbitrary system to rank sailors for each of the categories in Master's events. Perhaps as Master's sailing continues to grow we will be able to break into two fleets in the future (though I have the impression that the currently active Master's are very happy with the rig-swapping rule!).

Anyway, that is for the future. For this event I remain confident that everyone who has signed up to date will be registering in November.
 
Sorry to be all whiney!!

Really..

I will venture to make a suggestion for future comnsideration. It won't matter until Worlds is close enough so NA will over attend...suggestion.

Primary suggestion.. We won't have this problem again for a while but why not implement something in the meantime. This will give management and sailors a chance to look at the system while it hardly matters and tweak it to fit our needs.


I think we should have i a starter proposal so folks can bang it around. Perhaps a new thread dedicated to discussion would be nice??

I will start the thread



about my complaining??

Thanks for all your work regardless whether I don't like what you did.
 
I don't know what to make of posts like this... other than to be reminded of the immortal words from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Don't Panic.

< edited out...lotsa stuff>>>

Anyway, that is for the future. For this event I remain confident that everyone who has signed up to date will be registering in November.


I sure hope so . Currently Sally Sharp, long time District secretary of North America's largest by membership District and champion sailor, is at the very lonely bottom of that list.

I would not want to be the one who says to Sally...
"I know it is so close by you could sail to the racecourse from your house. I know you have done as much or more than anybody for Laser sailing in the last many years. I know you are one of the top women sailors on the planet. You waited until day three of the two month sign up period to apply. You can't play!!"
 
I think there are two distinct groups of people wanting to attend the event. There are truely competitive sailors who are among the top sailors in their own country wishing to compete against other from around the world. You also have a large number of people such as myself who are looking for a "sailing vacation" in a place they haven't been before.

I see nothing wrong with the "sailing vaction" people participating. I think most people participating in Laser master's sailing, it's more social than sport. I will probably never be good enough to outright qualify for a world championship of any type. At the same time, I have sailed Laser and been a class member for many years. I don't view this as an entitlement, but I feel I should be given an opportunity to participate when the event is held in my part of the world.

I believe the entry system, albeit slightly confusing, attempts to address both groups of sailors fairly. Those who have truely qualified will be guaranteed an entry slot, and more importantly a charter boat, from their country's initial allotment. As has been pointed out, everyone else who really wants to attend should eventually get a slot. After all, 350 is a HUGE number of boats.
 

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