restoring an old one

skute327

New Member
Hi,
I am working on an old sunfish and i am looking to remove the foam from inside the hull. now i searched for help on this and found that the mere mention of this seemed to cause anguish in the sunfish community.
let me explain:
this boat weighs about 300+ pounds. it takes 3 guys to lift and sits in the water about 2'' from the rub rail. the foam must come out! there must be like 20 gallons of water stuck in there. that would take a decade to dry out. i'd also rather not cut a bunch of inspection holes. this boat has been in the family since it was new in 1962. i would hate to see it go.

someone else on here mentioned separating the deck and hull at the rub rail and pulling the foam through the gap. this keeps the cockpit, board slot and mast attached. this is the approach i would like to take.

the problem: i removed the rub rail but the deck and hull are surprisingly well attached. in fact, there is no visible seam whatsoever.

i attached pictures of the seam under the rub rail.
if anyone knows of another way or how to break this seam, please help.

thanks
 

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The Yahoo Sunfish Sailor group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunfish_sailor/) has detailed instructions on how to remove and replace the foam in a Sunfish. It's not for the faint of heart.

You'll have to join the group, but it's free and easy, and there's a ton of information about fixing and restoring Sunfish. Good Luck!
 
Look back thru this forum - it may not be worth it to split the boat.

It will be a million times easier to cut some inspection ports and do the repair that way, and then it can be dried out after the next sailing adventure.

If you just split the hull and replace the foam, you might be back to a heavy boat in a year or so if it can't air out.

good luck...
 
thanks for the link, that is very helpful. it is beginning to look like i'm opening a can of worms. it seems the foam has some structural value to it as well. i have worked with old boats before, and once foam absorbs water, it is usually shot. it can be dried but once it gets wet again it soaks the water up like a sponge. especially when it is this old. my plan was to remove and not replace it. it appears i may need to strengthen the hull after removing the foam.


i'm not going to race this one. the resto is more for sentimental reasons i'm not really concerned with keeping it "legal"

thank you again for the quick responses!
 
it appears i may need to strengthen the hull after removing the foam.

They have some pictures over there of a 60s boat with the deck lifted and the foam cleaned out. Ask who’s boat that was and see if they have any insights from the experience. I recall an exchange from last summer where an owner with a situation like yours was considering some sort of honeycomb ribs to replace the lost support and putting in those shipping bladders Lasers use for the backup floats. Race legal looks like it’s probably a moot point. Doubt anyone worth their salt will even bring it up. :eek:

.
 
so... heres what i did:
weight= 225 lbs (a lot lighter than i thought but still heavy)
i used a sharpened putty knife to separate the deck and hull slightly. i started in the middle of the transom. i used a sawzall with a thin fine blade to cut about a foot forward. this allowed me to take a good look at what I'm working with. the block of wood that holds the rudder is rotted and this makes for a good opportunity to replace that. while its apart i will also replace the other two blocks that hold the cable.

the foam is in remarkable good shape. it is clean and dry. the foam is molded to the shape of the deck. the fiberglass deck is very thin (about 3/32'' ) it requires the foam to hold its shape. if the foam were removed it would be nearly impossible to recreate the original shape.

i am going to leave the foam in in the back.

there is still 100 pounds of water in there somewhere. i am reluctant to continue opening the hull. even with a sawzall it is a PITA:mad:

at this point i am beginning to think drying may be a better option. id hate to put in a bunch of inspection ports in, they are ugly and never seal perfectly watertight.
 
Hi,
I am working on an old sunfish...it takes 3 guys to lift and sits in the water about 2'' from the rub rail. the foam must come out!
I had a similar problem, but didn't have to remove all the foam. My hull would ooze water for days when stored on its edge. :(

It may be possible to dry the foam by taping black plastic film on the hull and store the hull in direct sunlight with the drainhole downwards and opened. Inspection ports with fan-forced warm air would speed the process.

"...it seems the foam has some structural value to it as well. i have worked with old boats before, and once foam absorbs water, it is usually shot. it can be dried but once it gets wet again it soaks the water up like a sponge..."
That's been my experience as well. Good or new foam does have structural value. Soaked foam is no better than a sponge. In fact, when removed, it can be used as a sponge! :eek:

My "other" hull has loose foam blocks and the bottom has an annoying "boing-boing" sound effect when sailing into waves and wakes.

"... especially when it is this old. my plan was to remove and not replace it. it appears i may need to strengthen the hull after removing the foam...i'm not going to race this one. the resto is more for sentimental reasons i'm not really concerned with keeping it 'legal'..."
I'm all for sentiment, but you need to sentimentally enjoy sailing this boat once again. Try drying it in the sun as above. Water will run out fast—at first—through the drain amidships.

If it's still heavy, add one 6" inspection port in front of the daggerboard trunk for faster drying. If the foam once again shows the problem (loses structural support or acts as a water-sponge), consider stacking pre-glued foam in long, narrow strips through the port until support (and dryness) returns.

Your weight problem may only be in one end or the other (of the boat :) ). A 6" port will make both repairs and future water removal (due to condensation or undetermined leaks) more efficient.

Most folks who have installed two ports wouldn't go back. ;)
 
Depends on what foam you are seeing. Yellow color was the pour-foam that set the white float blocks. The blocks are cut in rectangles. The pour-foam makes the contour with the deck. By the many accounts here, Sunfish seems to use higher quality foam than other builders. It recovers without degradation more often than in other boats. With the aft deck open you could put in a center deck plate and have the venting of two ports. Sounds like you’re gonna need the access to put in new backing wood up front too. There’s a guide to drying at that link Geophizz pointed you to that covers several options. At 100# your job looks like a doable one.
 
Skute, over the years we've dried out a lot of boats using access ports. If you have a leaking port problem it's with the installation. We've never had a 4", 5", or 6" port leak if installed properly.
One in between the splash rail and dagger board trunk and a second n the rear deck and then if possible a source to blow air into one. Also leave the ports out until you are finished. The extra inch or so of the rough opening makes reaching in a lot easier.
Water weight will drop like a stone as the outside of the blocks dry out. It will then slow down as it takes as long for the inner water to migrate back to the surface as it did to soak up originally.
As for the blocks we've gone to stainless plates with appropriate holes drilled and tapped in them rather than wood and epoxied in place.
 
"...By the many accounts here, Sunfish seems to use higher quality foam than other builders. It recovers without degradation more often than in other boats..."
A good observation, Dan. My account was from a clonefish—a Porpoise II—though it's been joined by a '76 Sunfish.

Looking again at skute's photos, what part of an "actual Sunfish" am I looking at? :confused:
 
i must agree on the quality of the foam, as you can see, the foam in the stern appears to be in perfect condition impressive for being 45 years old.
the weight must be in the bow area.


stainless plates sound like a good idea.
sorry if my pics were unclear, heres some more:
 

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were these boats always about 120 pounds? is it possible that the older ones were heavier??
i sent a camera taped to a long piece of pvc and sent it through the hull to take a look at the foam in the bow. the foam up there is clean and dry looking like the foam in the back. there is no water in here!! why does my boat weigh 225 pounds???
 
the view from inside
unfortunately the security cam outputs an analog signal that i cannot transfer directly to the computer. (i don't have a converter) the view in there is cool. i know a lot of people wanted pics of the inside of the hull. i'll see what i can do.
 

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were these boats always about 120 pounds?

The chart at Sunfish Sailors shows the 1960s Alcort boats were listed in the brochures at 139#. Commentary here and elsewhere say even that was subject to variability due to being hand built. Consensus seems to be + or - 10# is within the norm.


You sure got a lot of pour foam in your boat. When I was maintaining four family boats of that vintage none of them had quite that much.


there is no water in here!! why does my boat weigh 225 pounds???

You were expecting puddles? :confused: . . . It's inside the float cells. :eek:
Remember all that cell wall transfer stuff from middle school biology? Osmotic passage across a membrane. Read the explanation Geophizz steered you to. It's all laid out in plain language pretty much. Makes understanding what works for drying and what doesn't a whole bunch clearer.

.
 

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i wasn't expecting puddles but 47 years worth of salt water should leave some evidence of existence no? it looks brand new in there. i cut down inti the foam and pulled out the piece i took a picture of. even the inside is clean and dry. give it 150#, that still leaves 75# of water thats about 9 gallons.

if you could see what i saw on the monitor, you might think i pulled apart a 2002 sunfish
 
I'm stumped then. I was going along with the forward floats being the ones affected. Since you say they too are dry, what then - pig iron in the keel, stones in the cargo hold??

Maybe you have a geophysical phenomena like at my house. Gravity is stronger in some spots. I know it's real strong right about where I have my bathroom scale situated.
 
haha thats quite possible.
i made an breakthrough discovery while wet sanding the bow. the mast hole leaks into the hull. i will have to devise a way to get the camera between the pieces of foam in the bow to check it out. this may lead to the problem.
 
do you know if in that picture you put up, there is foam missing? i have a large block of foam there it extends from the mast to the front of the CB. and it looks soggy...
 
My boats have one up in front of the mast tube. Not visible in John's photo - probably just hidden in the shadows.

No block between the mast and daggerboard. I've never seen one there.
 
update:
added a 6" inspection port between dagger board and splash rail. the glass is surprisingly thick there (over 1/4") i removed the foam block through the hole. it came up in handfulls. it was completely saturated and moldy. i am not sure about the one in front of the mast yet. the two on the sides are damp but probably still okay. i think i removed about 25 lbs of wet foam. I'm not sure if i will replace it with new foam, make a wooden support for under the deck to go in its place, or leave it out completely. the deck is fairly stiff without it.
 
I thought the mast and daggerboard tubes provided support for the boat’s center line. Was your mid-block set into pour foam like the rear blocks? Now, at least you have a clear shot at the mast tube for wrapping on some fiberglass cloth to fix that leak. I’ve had mold spots on damp foam. It made the block surface look dirty, but didn’t look like it contributed to any damage of the foam itself. The slimy aspect went away after drying out and spraying in some Lysol spray then closing up for a couple of days. Good bet the side blocks have moisture in the cells. Your drying efforts should cure that.
 
"...i think i removed about 25 lbs of wet foam. I'm not sure if i will replace it with new foam, make a wooden support for under the deck to go in its place, or leave it out completely. the deck is fairly stiff without it..."
Take it from me...the deck may be stiff for your weight, but the bottom will "oil-can" once it starts hitting the waves. :cool:

BTW: I'm not familiar with early Sunfish models: Is that apparent depression in the transom (post 1) typical of certain years? :confused:
 
i have a large block of foam there it extends from the mast to the front of the CB. - - - i removed the foam block through the hole. it came up in handfulls. it was completely saturated and moldy.

Take it from me...the deck may be stiff for your weight, but the bottom will "oil-can" once it starts hitting the waves.

Oil-can at the keel, right at mid-hull, from the mast to the front of the CB? :eek: . . . You sure you aren’t thinking of a different make of boat. I’ve not seen that behavior in a Sunfish. Don’t expect anyone ever would in that spot.

Oil-canning happens in the flat expanse between keel and chine on boats where the side foam supports have come loose and the flat sheet of fiberglass is allowed to flex more because the support has gone missing.


BTW: I'm not familiar with early Sunfish models: Is that apparent depression in the transom (post 1) typical of certain years?

That’s the rudder plate carriage bolt groove. Every aluminum lip Sunfish I’ve owned showed that groove. Not until I picked up a newer rounded edge hull did I see it disappear. Good bet the groove is there on your '76 hidden behind the new style gudgeon plate.
 
"...You sure you aren’t thinking of a different make of boat. I’ve not seen that behavior in a Sunfish. Don’t expect anyone ever would in that spot...Oil-canning happens in the flat expanse between keel and chine on boats where the side foam supports have come loose and the flat sheet of fiberglass is allowed to flex more because the support has gone missing.
My Porpoise II clonefish doesn't oil-can.

My '76 Sunfish does oil-can, and it coincides perfectly with a wave hitting forward of the daggerboard. Both forward flotation blocks are quite loose, which is why I caution skute397 about letting the under-deck support go missing.

That’s the rudder plate carriage bolt groove. Every aluminum lip Sunfish I’ve owned showed that groove. Not until I picked up a newer rounded edge hull did I see it disappear. Good bet the groove is there on your '76 hidden behind the new style gudgeon plate.
Hmmm. My '76 Sunfish—which has decals indicating a racing history—has an aluminum lip and no visible groove. The hull was pointed by the previous owner, so now I'm wondering if the hull has been sanded within a millimeter of its life!:eek:

I'll look for that missing groove after I get it out from winter storage. Thanks! :)
 

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