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Restoring an 1976 Vanguard Intl. 470

LaLi

Well-Known Member
is there anyway to share more of arekas photos? Especially the trapeze setup.
Yes :D

Here's a view that shows the approximate setup and location of the trapezes. This boat has the contemporary "rope/plate" style handles - you grab the rope, and the plate stops your hand from sliding farther down. The plates should be roughly at same level as the top of the boom (lower measurement mark); if you use another style of handle (such as the T- or triangle-shaped ones), they should be about 10 cm higher. The exact position is determined by crew size and his/her personal style and preference.
The rope/wire joint doesn't have to be that high, but it can as it's not very critical. About half of the rope length on this boat would still be fine.
The fairleads or blocks for the return elastic on the side deck should be located like this, distant enough from the chainplates, so the trapeze doesn't get wrapped around the shroud that easily. On many 1970s boats this is a problem (and is rather easy to fix).

IMG_2200.jpg


A closer look at the wire/rope joint. This can be tied or spliced in any way you want really.
The other types of handle were usually connected directly to the wire (which meant that the wires were longer), but there's nothing that keeps you from using a connecting rope with those, too. The original wires for your boat very likely need to be shortened considerably. (Have you found them yet?)

IMG_9124.jpg


Here's the handle, height adjustment system and ring. The rope is slid through a piece of plastic tube for better grip (which could be twice that length). The standard choice of cleat is a Clamcleat, but a block with an integrated wedge cleat is fine, too.
The return elastic is attached the right way, so that it releases the ring from the harness hook just by pulling the handle.
On the opposite side, you can see the elastic go behind the blue spinnaker bag...

IMG_9123.jpg

... to a turning block near the mast step, and continuing aft...

IMG_9184.jpg

.. to another turning block behind the centreboard case that sends it back forward, to the port side trapeze:

IMG_9295.jpg

This is a fairly standard system, but there are countless other ways to lead the elastic, including having it crisscross hidden behind the spinnaker bags, or leading it to the transom along the side tanks, etc. The two sides don't need to be connected, but it's a neat way of doubling the stretching length.

Hope this answered some of your questions :)

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btaylor

Member
Hi, I was able to run the spinnaker halyard and spinnaker pole topping lift (in the mast) back to the correct controls.
I was doing this after racing for a few hours and messed up on running the spinnaker sheets. My question is when I run the spinnaker sheet from port to starboard (clew and tack) of the spinnaker (going around the 470 from the bow to the transom and back) how long should the spinnaker sheet be?
IMG_1027.png
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
how long should the spinnaker sheet be?
Something like 19 metres should be enough. Test it in real life: you want to be able to let the spinnaker flap completely when sheeting it from the trapeze, while still having some slack in the windward part of the sheet.

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btaylor

Member
Something like 19 metres should be enough. Test it in real life: you want to be able to let the spinnaker flap completely when sheeting it from the trapeze, while still having some slack in the windward part of the sheet.

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Thanks! Pardon my ignorance but from what I experienced the spinnaker sheet (one continuous line) should go from the spinnaker port attachment, around the port shroud and route along the port gunwale to the port side rear block on the transom, across the transom to the starboard block, follow the starboard side gunwale, go around the shroud, around the forestay, and attached to the starboard spinnaker attachment. On my boat there are a port and starboard Side Entry Aluminum Clamcleat® w/ Fairlead to control the trim of the spinnaker sheets. Does that sound about right?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Well, from the transom it should go along the side tank to the turning block in front of the traveller, and only then cross the cockpit...

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
IMG_9300.jpg

From sail to aft end of gunwale, to transom, along the side tank, under the traveller, to turning block on the side tank in front of the traveller, and across the boat.

IMG_9320.jpg
(It's the black and white line.)

A few notes:
This boat has the post-1986 support pieces under the traveller track, so there's a hole for the sheet to go through. Not needed on 70s boats :D
Ratchet blocks are customary today; they're certainly helpful but not necessary.
The cleat above the ratchet isn't absolutely necessary either, although it's a nice backup for the windward sheet, good for keeping the lazy sheet out of the water, and may be helpful for the helmsman during gybes.

Now, US 1358 does have the blocks and cleats for the spinnaker sheet in the middle of the boat, but someone has apparently repurposed them for the jib lead:

IMG_1007.jpeg

Just take them back for the spinnaker now. Doesn't the jib car have a piston-stop adjustment anyway?

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btaylor

Member
View attachment 53731

From sail to aft end of gunwale, to transom, along the side tank, under the traveller, to turning block on the side tank in front of the traveller, and across the boat.

View attachment 53732
(It's the black and white line.)

A few notes:
This boat has the post-1986 support pieces under the traveller track, so there's a hole for the sheet to go through. Not needed on 70s boats :D
Ratchet blocks are customary today; they're certainly helpful but not necessary.
The cleat above the ratchet isn't absolutely necessary either, although it's a nice backup for the windward sheet, good for keeping the lazy sheet out of the water, and may be helpful for the helmsman during gybes.

Now, US 1358 does have the blocks and cleats for the spinnaker sheet in the middle of the boat, but someone has apparently repurposed them for the jib lead:

View attachment 53733

Just take them back for the spinnaker now. Doesn't the jib car have a piston-stop adjustment anyway?

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Thanks, yes the shock cord to the jib car was redundant and my crew hate it. Your layout makes total sense and many thanks! Looking forward to flying the spinnaker this weekend at practice and for our Sunday race.
 

btaylor

Member
Hi, after racing her most of the season I finally had some time to take the boat home and do some TLC. The trapeze SS line from the mast down with the 4:1 Jam Cleat setup was like that (in a bag of stuff) when I got the boat. I can kick myself for removing the other block setup with a clamcleat (I use some white line in the photo to hold the trapeze where that block setup went). I am assuming that this is the old style 1970's vintage of trapeze? My best guess is that I need a 4:1 with a clam cleat (where the white line is temporarily setup) so that the rig down to the block on the gunwale can be adjusted to crew preference. Thanks again in advance for your help!
Trapeze.jpg
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
All the trapeze equipment that is visible looks totally fine, and you don't need to buy anything except a take-up elastic + the blocks that are needed to run it in the cockpit. You could even remove the blocks from the rings and run the adjustment (red) line simply through the circular part of the ring, and get a little more range of adjustment.

The handles and cleats are definitely 1970s style, but there's nothing wrong with them. The wedge cleats work if the line isn't too thin or soft. Just attach the blocks so that the cleats face outward. (The elastic should be tied from the "inward" side to the bar that is common to the circular and "elongated" parts of the ring.)

By the way, that purchase ratio is 2:1 :rolleyes:

By the way 2: if the shrouds are that loose when the mast is that upright, the tuning is (still) way off :confused:

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btaylor

Member
All the trapeze equipment that is visible looks totally fine, and you don't need to buy anything except a take-up elastic + the blocks that are needed to run it in the cockpit. You could even remove the blocks from the rings and run the adjustment (red) line simply through the circular part of the ring, and get a little more range of adjustment.

The handles and cleats are definitely 1970s style, but there's nothing wrong with them. The wedge cleats work if the line isn't too thin or soft. Just attach the blocks so that the cleats face outward. (The elastic should be tied from the "inward" side to the bar that is common to the circular and "elongated" parts of the ring.)

By the way, that purchase ratio is 2:1 :rolleyes:

By the way 2: if the shrouds are that loose when the mast is that upright, the tuning is (still) way off :confused:

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thanks again for your help - tuning - the next time I have the mainsail and jib hoisted and ready to sail I will take some photos. When the sails are up and ready to go the shrouds are tight but the mast rake could be wrong. Maybe that is why I am so slow LOL!

It is unfortunate that I have been unable to find a circa 1970's tuning guide but I assume that the mast and sails are actually circa 1990's. The tuning guides appear to be more for the 2000's year range.
 

btaylor

Member
thanks again for your help - tuning - the next time I have the mainsail and jib hoisted and ready to sail I will take some photos. When the sails are up and ready to go the shrouds are tight but the mast rake could be wrong. Maybe that is why I am so slow LOL!

It is unfortunate that I have been unable to find a circa 1970's tuning guide but I assume that the mast and sails are actually circa 1990's. The tuning guides appear to be more for the 2000's year range.
I did not look closely at the blocks - for some reason I thought it was double fiddle with becket hence the 4:1 LOL.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
When the sails are up and ready to go the shrouds are tight but the mast rake could be wrong.
Judging from the pictures, your rake is wildly wrong. If your forestay is still the same length as in post #62 in the other thread, it's no wonder. There is no reason why it should be essentially shorter than the maximum length as defined in the class rules:
IMG_0097.jpg
That is, the mast is not more than halfway out of the mast gate when the jib is down, with the mast foot at least 3055 mm from the transom (you've measured that, haven't you).

I see your forestay includes a long extension piece, which should be even longer. You can add a length of rope between that wire and the stem fitting as an interim solution.


It is unfortunate that I have been unable to find a circa 1970's tuning guide but I assume that the mast and sails are actually circa 1990's. The tuning guides appear to be more for the 2000's year range.
It's actually fortunate that you haven't come across any outdated tuning ideas! What is unfortunate is that the current guides may be, as mentioned earlier, somewhat hard to decipher.

Back in the day, I had sails that were probably very similar to yours, on an identical mast. (I'd say those aren't much newer than 1980.) We didn't have a tension meter or adjustable spreaders either, until we started competing in international regattas. During our first year of racing, our basic tuning consisted of getting mast rake and bend in the ballpark, and figuring out a couple different settings to fit different conditions. For your needs, I believe the same would be satisfactory.

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting that (the North Sails Japan general tuning guide)! It's definitely been updated since I last looked at it; now it gives actually a rather comprehensive overview of it all. Even the Janglish isn't anywhere near as bad as I remembered :D

We could talk about this forever (and it would need a few threads of their own), so just a few notes for now:
  • "forestay" doesn't mean the actual forestay but "jib luff wire"
  • "(deck or mast) chock" means "mast puller". I don't think anyone has used actual chocks on a new boat since the 70s
  • "tack rope" is more commonly called "jib cunningham"
  • I find it nicely familiar that they're using metres per second for wind speed! Multiply with two if you want the approximate number in knots
  • Rig Tension: don't worry about this too much. The given numbers translate to about 150 to 180 kg worth of tension on the jib halyard/luff wire ("forestay"), which is a lot more than you should/need to even try. And measuring shroud ("sidestay") tension is pointless anyway
  • Mast Step: these numbers are likely far more forward than your mast step allows. How far forward is your mast foot at the moment, and how far further can it go?
  • Spreaders: you can skip this for now
  • Trim Line: this is actually very useful. I have no idea how to draw one at the proper angle on an existing sail, though, but I'll find out some day :D
  • Trimming Table: this may look a bit messy but is actually pretty neat. The mast bend numbers of course vary from mainsail to mainsail (and I have no idea what "A4" and "A9" mean), but the general idea is well illustrated.

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