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Restoring an 1976 Vanguard Intl. 470

btaylor

New Member
Hi, question: anyone know if it is possible to find out the original sail number? I won't be sailing in any regattas with this old girl so my project is just for the fun of sailing her.

Back story: bought two hulls (the other hull appears to be pre HIN so that means pre 1972), two masts (one is slightly bent (repairable) and missing the mast step assy), two rudder assy with tillers, two sets of sails, one boom, a spinnaker and a lot of misc hardware with a trailer for $850. I know, spent too much but was an impulse buy. I belong to the Hueston Sailing Association and we race and sail at Acton lake (we are in southwest Ohio). I own and sail a 1991 Macgregor 26S (classic), a 1986 Catania Capri 14.2, a 1993 Club Flying Junior (CFJ) and now this project. I had a 1976 Y-Flyer and a 1983 Precision 16 and sold them this year. My sailing instructors are in their mid to late seventies and have been racing/sailing since they were kids. One of my instructors came over yesterday and we stepped the mast and sorted out the shrouds and forestay. One of the club members, I found out yesterday, raced 470's back in the day so I have a source for some help. As with many of the racing dinghies there is no, "Rigging Layout" that is common among the sailboats and owners. Every racer has there own unique spin on how to run the myriad of lines and systems. The boiler plate has serial number 15995 but the HIN has a serial number of 1498 (model year 1976). Will post pictures as I go. I have already found a lot of good info on other posts.
 

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
It's there below the "US REG NO" on the builder's sticker :rolleyes: So it should say US(A) 1358 on your mainsail.

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torrid

Just sailing
Thinking back many moons when I sailed 470s. Given there are so many different manufacturers and so many different national authorities with their own numbering, it isn't like Lasers where a sail number is assigned to each hull by the builder. I believe when you buy a 470, it is up to you to contact the national authority who will then assign a sail number.

I had an old 470, and I was able to contact US Sailing and get a copy of the original measurement certificate. Presumably the sail number would be with that. However that was 30 years ago, and there is no telling what sort of documentation they still have.

edit - I see LaLi clued you in to the builder's sticker, so that is most likely the info you want. I had an early 80s vintage that was US 15xx, so 1358 would seem about right for a mid 70s hull. The class never was too popular in the US. As those era Vanguards were fairly rugged as least as 470s go. Glad to see the old girl getting back out on the water. Go easy on the rig tension.
 
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btaylor

New Member
Thinking back many moons when I sailed 470s. Given there are so many different manufacturers and so many different national authorities with their own numbering, it isn't like Lasers where a sail number is assigned to each hull by the builder. I believe when you buy a 470, it is up to you to contact the national authority who will then assign a sail number.

I had an old 470, and I was able to contact US Sailing and get a copy of the original measurement certificate. Presumably the sail number would be with that. However that was 30 years ago, and there is no telling what sort of documentation they still have.

edit - I see LaLi clued you in to the builder's sticker, so that is most likely the info you want. I had an early 80s vintage that was US 15xx, so 1358 would seem about right for a mid 70s hull. The class never was too popular in the US. As those era Vanguards were fairly rugged as least as 470s go. Glad to see the old girl getting back out on the water. Go easy on the rig tension.
Thanks, I was sailing a Y-Flyer this year (1976 vintage) and it is very similar method for rig tension - forestay is more of a safety line, side shrouds are "loose" and the "magic box" using the jib halyard is how the standing rigging gets tensioned. Mast rake could be adjusted on the fly via the magic box. Tuning guides gave the mast mainsail halyard to transom measurement guidance. When the jib halyard is tensioned right the shrouds are "tight" and the forestay was so loose we had a shock cord attached so that it would not flop around and get in the jib path.
 

btaylor

New Member
Hi, I keep forgetting to ask: this 470 has a 3/4" wide with a small lip "rubber" rub rail that is riveted on. I have looked high and low but cannot find something close. Has anyone has success finding something? Please share your research - thanks
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
this 470 has a 3/4" wide with a small lip "rubber" rub rail that is riveted on.
Probably best to simply leave it out and patch the rivet holes. I think Vanguard dropped it from their later boats, and other builders didn't have anything similar either from the late 1970s on.

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torrid

Just sailing
Thanks, I was sailing a Y-Flyer this year (1976 vintage) and it is very similar method for rig tension - forestay is more of a safety line, side shrouds are "loose" and the "magic box" using the jib halyard is how the standing rigging gets tensioned. Mast rake could be adjusted on the fly via the magic box. Tuning guides gave the mast mainsail halyard to transom measurement guidance. When the jib halyard is tensioned right the shrouds are "tight" and the forestay was so loose we had a shock cord attached so that it would not flop around and get in the jib path.
Yes, the forestay is only there to keep the mast upright with the rig untensioned. All the tension is in the jib luff wire. Sounds like you already figured out what to do with shock cord and the forestay when the rig is tensioned.

The magic box is an older system for the jib tension. Now most 470s have a multi-purcharse tensioning system that is fed back to a cleat along the side of the centerboard. I guess the intent is to make it easier for the skipper to adjust the rig tension. The crew is usually either out on the wire or has their head buried in the chute. If the magic box is working for you and allows you to get the boat out on the water, I would just leave it.

The tuning guides will suggest very tight rig tensions, in excess of 300 lbs. Those numbers are for Olympians with brand new hulls. You do not want anywhere near that much rig tension in a 50-year-old hull.
 

btaylor

New Member
Thanks for the insight - just enjoy restoring and sailing these old girls and keep them out of the scrap heap for a little longer. By the way, I have a "bent" mast that came with this package. For non-competitive racing the mast could probably be "straightened" using the tried and true methods for club boats. If anyone wants the mast let me know. If no takers I will cut it up for scrap.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
The magic box is an older system for the jib tension. Now most 470s have a multi-purcharse tensioning system that is fed back to a cleat along the side of the centerboard. I guess the intent is to make it easier for the skipper to adjust the rig tension.
Magic boxes were ditched in the early 1980s when people realized that cascading systems with floating blocks have considerably less friction. Most magic boxes (especially ones mounted on the mast) also have a relatively short range of adjustment, which makes jib halyard wire length pretty critical. But if an old box runs reasonably smoothly (you may have to disassemble and clean it) and gets you in the ballpark tuningwise, keep it.

Newer 470s do have the jib halyard led to the skipper, so you can even play with it in gusts :confused: :D In recreational use, you really don't need to touch it on the water.

The tuning guides will suggest very tight rig tensions, in excess of 300 lbs. Those numbers are for Olympians with brand new hulls. You do not want anywhere near that much rig tension in a 50-year-old hull.
It depends on the individual hull. As a rule of thumb, the vast majority of 470s built after 1986 can take adequate rig tension. Older than that are more hit or miss, with the percentage of "misses" growing rapidly with age. You have to test it. A few cracking sounds are normal :D but if things really start to deform (such as the centreboard jamming in the case), then ease a little.

In any case, I believe it's still best to take present-day tuning guides as a starting point, and then see how the old (I assume original) sails look and feel on the water.

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btaylor

New Member
Thanks for all of the insights: so far I have been able to sort out the usual stuff, main halyard, jib halyard, centerboard control lines, traveller control lines, outhaul control line, mainsheet, vang, jib sheets, spinnaker pole line and rudder stuff. All working and not in too bad of shape. What I am not addressing yet are the trapeze lines and the spinnaker stuff - after I get the other aforementioned tested out on land and then the water I will take a look, with my friend who use to race 470's in the 1970's, and see what is needed to get them in working order. The previous owner gave me boxes and boxes of line, hardware and related. My question is what are the sheaves for in the lower part of the mast (aft and forward facing the bow). The picture is the aft facing section and there appears to be one or more sheaves in the front (not shown) of the mast.
 

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
Lots of possibilities there.

First, the mast looks like it's considerably newer than the hull. It's a round profile, is it a Z-Spar? The heel fitting is of the type that fits all post-1970s mast steps. Fundamentally it's a mismatch with your boat, but it probably works as there's no visible play in any direction.

The fitting was most likely intended to be also used in classes other than the 470, with different requirements for halyards and control systems. The sheaves are there more as possible choices, not all of them intended to be used in all boats.

Stuff that might come out of a 470 mast heel are the three halyards and the spinnaker pole uphaul (topping lift), maybe the pole downhaul (foreguy), too. The foreguy is actually the only one that might come out at the front side. As all of the sheaves are plastic, I assume no wires were intended to pass there, so that leaves the spinnaker halyard and pole uphaul. You have to look higher up on the mast to see how they are led to see whether you need these sheaves at all. Typically the spinnaker halyard goes from there on the port side to be cleated at the aft end, or behind, the centreboard case, while the topping lift cleats on top of the case.

By the way, have you already measured the position of the mast heel? That type of step is usually located quite far aft, and you probably want to move the heel a bit (one hole may be enough) forward. The minimum distance from (the aft face of) the transom is 3055 millimetres to the aft edge of the mast (including the mainsail luff groove as if it extended all the way down); most tuning guides recommend around 3100.

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btaylor

New Member
Not fully done but ready for the water. Sailed her successfully for about an hour in light wind but the deck filled with water slow but surely - the transom plugs were installed and all of the other plugs were installed. I went over the hull from end to end and fixed all defects so no "holes" below water line. I was wondering if the self bailers and/or center board "gasket" screws could be leaking? Cannot find any information about how to repair self bailers and the center board "gasket area" seems to be covered with some type of "poured" or "formed" metal over where I would expect screws. There was water in the forward area that I drained out too. Anyone have any thoughts or experiences in this area?
470 (2).jpg
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
With "the deck filled with water" I take you mean the cockpit filled with water :rolleyes:

The classic point of leakage in 470s of all vintages is the centreboard pivot bolt. Simply tightening it may be enough, but you should also have fresh rubber washers (neoprene is fine) there.

The bailers of course is the other likely culprit. You may have to replace them, depending where exactly they leak. The centreboard gasket however is unlikely to let water in the boat (it's supposed to do the exact opposite :D ), as its mounting screws don't pierce the inside surface of the bottom (do they? Post pictures from both sides).

If with "the forward area" you mean the forward tank, that leaks most often from the cockpit side through poorly functioning drainhole fittings.

I suggest that you test all these areas by filling the boat on land with enough water that the centreboard pivot bolt gets submerged. Then watch where it comes out from the bottom side! (And if the forward tank gets any of it.)

On another note, what's your mast rake? The rig appears to be unusually upright with the boom very high. You seem to have the shrouds in the uppermost hole, so at least there's room for adjustment.

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btaylor

New Member
Hi, sorry I meant the cockpit area was filling with water (not like sinking filling but just annoying filling) but we did not have the bailers open. It was a slow and steady fill over about and hour but was just enough to make your feet wet. The picture did not have the jib tensioned to rake the mast - I assume that the magic box tensioning of the jib sets the mast rake? I assume that the standing rigging thought process is similar to what I know about Y-flyers - forestay is just for safety, side shrouds loose until jib tensioned, magic box sets mast rake. Thanks again for your insights and I will test your suggestions this weekend. This 470 is a blast to sail and I hope to race her in our handicap races soon. Photos when she is rigged properly will be forth coming.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
You mean the jib halyard is loose in that picture? Oh my, that makes it even more out of tune :confused: The boom should be roughly horizontal with everything set up for light-to-medium conditions.

Anyway, you've got the basic idea right, though I think it's better to think about shroud position setting the rake, and jib halyard setting the tension. Either way doesn't really matter, as you can't have one without the other :D

Are you familiar with the method of mast rake measurement?

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
Which tuning guide do you recommend?
To tell the truth, I don't think any of the current ones online (that I know of) are very good. They include irrelevant measurements and/or apply to present-day mast sections only, and aren't compatible with one another. Their English language can be pretty interesting, too :D

My own quick and dirty basic tuning for people without a tension meter or adjustable spreaders: pull the jib halyard until the mast bends a few centimetres, and measure with the main halyard in normal sailing position the distance from the mast top to the top of the transom. If this reads about 670 cm, then you're in the middle of the ballpark. Just looking at your last picture again, I would expect your number to be a lot higher. You will likely have to take the shrouds many holes down, and quite possibly lengthen the forestay to achieve that. (Which is no problem as you can use rope there as an interim solution.)

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btaylor

New Member
Thanks and understood. Very similar to other racing dinghy setups. I have a long tape measure that I attach the main halyard and take measurements.
 

btaylor

New Member
With "the deck filled with water" I take you mean the cockpit filled with water :rolleyes:

The classic point of leakage in 470s of all vintages is the centreboard pivot bolt. Simply tightening it may be enough, but you should also have fresh rubber washers (neoprene is fine) there.

The bailers of course is the other likely culprit. You may have to replace them, depending where exactly they leak. The centreboard gasket however is unlikely to let water in the boat (it's supposed to do the exact opposite :D ), as its mounting screws don't pierce the inside surface of the bottom (do they? Post pictures from both sides).

If with "the forward area" you mean the forward tank, that leaks most often from the cockpit side through poorly functioning drainhole fittings.

I suggest that you test all these areas by filling the boat on land with enough water that the centreboard pivot bolt gets submerged. Then watch where it comes out from the bottom side! (And if the forward tank gets any of it.)

On another note, what's your mast rake? The rig appears to be unusually upright with the boom very high. You seem to have the shrouds in the uppermost hole, so at least there's room for adjustment.

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I have had the 470 out several times and raced last Sunday. I fixed the centerboard pivot bolt leak. I wanted to test to see if the bailers were leaking so I duck taped them from underneath before putting in and when we went out the water in the cockpit area was almost nothing compared to Sunday's race. Any guess on the type of bailer? I found a PDF for repairing Anderson bailers but not sure what is on my boat.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Ok, that's an Andersen Super Medium. It's probably the longest-produced unchanged fitting in modern sailboat history :D It can't really be rebuilt if it leaks between the chute and the non-moving part. You want to test that by taping over just the fibreglass/stainless seam on the outside, pouring water into the cockpit and seeing if any comes out with the bailer closed. If so, you have to replace the whole thing. If not, all you need to replace is the rubber seal. You can buy those off the shelf. too, but I guess they could be homebuilt as well.

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btaylor

New Member
Ok, that's an Andersen Super Medium. It's probably the longest-produced unchanged fitting in modern sailboat history :D It can't really be rebuilt if it leaks between the chute and the non-moving part. You want to test that by taping over just the fibreglass/stainless seam on the outside, pouring water into the cockpit and seeing if any comes out with the bailer closed. If so, you have to replace the whole thing. If not, all you need to replace is the rubber seal. You can buy those off the shelf. too, but I guess they could be homebuilt as well.

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Thanks, I ordered the parts - your help is much appreciated!
 

btaylor

New Member
Now that I have the basics somewhat dialed in, I want to rig the trapeze. I have not found any guidance on how to rig for the 1976 vintage. Any thoughts about where to start looking?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
First, a rule of thumb: do NOT look for anything mid-1970s vintage in terms of 470 equipment and system arrangements (unless for stylistic reasons where possible :D ). The layout of the boat evolved quite rapidly in the late 70s/early 80s, and by '84 or so it looked pretty similar to what it is today. (The current trend is to lead nearly all adjustments to the side tanks, but that's really a minor refinement.) The boat is actually easier to sail now, so it makes no sense to copy/emulate anything obsolete.

Trapezing techniques changed during that same time period; the handles went higher, and the multihull-style systems were abandoned. Currently handles consist of a rope part (on top of which you can slide a plastic or rubber tube for comfort) and a round plastic plate at the cleat.

The only place online that sells 470-specific stuff, including trapeze equipment, is Mackay Boats. Another possibility is to buy much more widely available 420 class trapezes and lengthen them (they are almost half a metre shorter I believe) with a longer rope part.

I see you have the round holes on your mast for J-hook attachments for the trapezes. The problem with that is that everyone uses T-shaped terminals nowadays, so wherever you get your wires from, you'll have to ask them to change those to fit your mast (if they do custom wire work). Or you can elongate those holes to fit a T-terminal.

Didn't the boat come with any usable trapeze equipment?

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btaylor

New Member
First, a rule of thumb: do NOT look for anything mid-1970s vintage in terms of 470 equipment and system arrangements (unless for stylistic reasons where possible :D ). The layout of the boat evolved quite rapidly in the late 70s/early 80s, and by '84 or so it looked pretty similar to what it is today. (The current trend is to lead nearly all adjustments to the side tanks, but that's really a minor refinement.) The boat is actually easier to sail now, so it makes no sense to copy/emulate anything obsolete.

Trapezing techniques changed during that same time period; the handles went higher, and the multihull-style systems were abandoned. Currently handles consist of a rope part (on top of which you can slide a plastic or rubber tube for comfort) and a round plastic plate at the cleat.

The only place online that sells 470-specific stuff, including trapeze equipment, is Mackay Boats. Another possibility is to buy much more widely available 420 class trapezes and lengthen them (they are almost half a metre shorter I believe) with a longer rope part.

I see you have the round holes on your mast for J-hook attachments for the trapezes. The problem with that is that everyone uses T-shaped terminals nowadays, so wherever you get your wires from, you'll have to ask them to change those to fit your mast (if they do custom wire work). Or you can elongate those holes to fit a T-terminal.

Didn't the boat come with any usable trapeze equipment?

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Thanks, yes it came with the what appears to be the original trapeze rigging but the original owner had no idea what anything was so it was all in bags with the standing rigging stuff. I was looking for any bread crumbs of information to setup the rigging with the understanding that this is a 1976 "project boat" and I am not racing in any 470 regattas. Our sailing association is small and I race the 470 in the handicap slot and we use the Portsmouth ratings. Thanks again for all of your help - it made getting this old girl back on the water possible.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
yes it came with the what appears to be the original trapeze rigging but the original owner had no idea what anything was so it was all in bags with the standing rigging stuff.
Ok, take that stuff out of the bags so we can see what you've got - It's very likely going to be a lot easier to modernize/add to that than trying to make brand new equipment fit. Find the wires with the J-hooks, attach them to the mast, and we'll go on from there.

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btaylor

New Member
Ok, take that stuff out of the bags so we can see what you've got - It's very likely going to be a lot easier to modernize/add to that than trying to make brand new equipment fit. Find the wires with the J-hooks, attach them to the mast, and we'll go on from there.

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Thanks!, will do next weekend when I am at the lake racing.
 

btaylor

New Member
Hi, I did not have a chance to work on the trapeze but was focused on the spinnaker and related. I have had a blast racing her but want to start the process of figuring out how to rig the spinnaker and spinnaker pole. I watched what I could find - not much for older 470 but some for the 420 which are not the same but give me some ideas. I made a spinnaker turtle bag and mounted it and packed the spinnaker as shown in some videos for dinghies.

I need to route the spinnaker halyard inside of the mast (have not stepped the mast yet - broken wrist and need some help).

Any bread crumbs will be much appreciated!


Is this the spinnaker pole downhaul? If not, what is it?

IMG_1002.jpeg
Photo below: Is this the spinnaker halyard setup?(center of the boat - not the mainsheet at the top) I am not sure if someone tied this up for transport of how to connect the spinnaker halyard to this setup. The lower bungee line tied off to a bracket is the same line shown above.
IMG_1003.jpeg

The image belows has a label market pole. I am a bit confused -is this for a downhaul and topping lift for the spinnaker pole? The lines go forward (under the center console) so I assume that the pole lines come from the bow area.
IMG_1006.jpeg
Photo below: here is the center console with the two spinnaker pole (in the center) jam cleats. The line comes up from underneath into the jam cleat. Note that the Vang and Cunningham have port and starboard controls - I am only using the starboard side right now. I did run the magic box out to the port side so I could adjust tension from my seat.
IMG_1007.jpeg

Photo below: I assume that the two blocks on the transom are for the spinnaker lines?
IMG_1010.jpeg

Thanks again for all of the help.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
I watched what I could find - not much for older 470 but some for the 420 which are not the same but give me some ideas.
Again, don't think of your boat as an "older 470" in the sense that it would somehow need technical solutions that are fundamentally different from "newer" boats. You choose what is smartest, not what they had back in the day. (Unless there's a reasonable stylistic choice to be made!)

If you rig the spinnaker equipment like it's done on a 420, you'll get it mostly right. The only real difference is that you need the sheet lead to be near the transom, and not at the traveller (more on that below). The 470 class rules allow some extra goodies, such as twings and reverse-purchase halyards (more on that, too, below), but you don't really need them for recreational sailing.

Is this the spinnaker pole downhaul?
Yes. That end connects to a hook that in turn connects to the pole, and the uphaul. The other end should (most likely) lead aft, have a stopper (such as a plastic ball) to keep the pole from skying, and an elastic to hold it (and the uphaul with it) tight along the mast. It may be adjustable, but I doubt that that was intended on your boat.

Is this the spinnaker halyard setup? I am not sure if someone tied this up for transport of how to connect the spinnaker halyard to this setup. The lower bungee line tied off to a bracket is the same line shown above.
Had to look hard at this one. The line is obviously just stowed away like that. It could well be the secondary halyard line, which would connect to a block through which the primary line (the "actual" halyard) runs, forming a 1:3 or 1:4 reverse-purchase system. That's one of those fun things that aren't totally necessary, and you can run the halyard as a 1:1. The (primary) halyard of yours may not be long enough for that, though. Rig it and see what happens.

What's at the forward end of that elastic?

The image belows has a label market pole. I am a bit confused -is this for a downhaul and topping lift for the spinnaker pole? The lines go forward (under the center console) so I assume that the pole lines come from the bow area.
If there's only one cleat marked "POLE", it's for the uphaul, and that's with which you adjust the pole angle. The downhaul (as mentioned above) only sets the limit for maximum pole height.

The other V-cleat is for something else - does the label say MA...?

the Vang and Cunningham have port and starboard controls - I am only using the starboard side right now. I did run the magic box out to the port side so I could adjust tension from my seat.
The vang is very, very good to be adjustable from a hiking position. The cunningham, much less so. And the jib halyard you really, really don't need to adjust from the side tank... that would be some extremely high-end fine adjustment!

I assume that the two blocks on the transom are for the spinnaker lines?
Yes, they're for the spinnaker sheet. What the picture doesn't show is whether there are additional blocks on the gunwale (as there should), but I assume not, as you didn't include them (and I don't see them in the older pictures, either). They used to be located some 50 to 60 cm forward, but they've crept farther aft over the years so they're right at the transom on all boats now.

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
I just received access to a ton of VERY informative pictures from forum member arekas, of the 2013 boat that he recently sold. A few are immediately relevant to the previous comments.

1) Here's how the downhaul and uphaul meet at the spinnaker pole:

IMG_9273.jpg


IMG_9250.jpg
(The hook is actually threaded the wrong way through the eyestrap, but you get the idea.)


2) Here's how the spinnaker sheet runs at the transom:

IMG_9251.jpg

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btaylor

New Member
Again, don't think of your boat as an "older 470" in the sense that it would somehow need technical solutions that are fundamentally different from "newer" boats. You choose what is smartest, not what they had back in the day. (Unless there's a reasonable stylistic choice to be made!)

If you rig the spinnaker equipment like it's done on a 420, you'll get it mostly right. The only real difference is that you need the sheet lead to be near the transom, and not at the traveller (more on that below). The 470 class rules allow some extra goodies, such as twings and reverse-purchase halyards (more on that, too, below), but you don't really need them for recreational sailing.

Yes. That end connects to a hook that in turn connects to the pole, and the uphaul. The other end should (most likely) lead aft, have a stopper (such as a plastic ball) to keep the pole from skying, and an elastic to hold it (and the uphaul with it) tight along the mast. It may be adjustable, but I doubt that that was intended on your boat.

Had to look hard at this one. The line is obviously just stowed away like that. It could well be the secondary halyard line, which would connect to a block through which the primary line (the "actual" halyard) runs, forming a 1:3 or 1:4 reverse-purchase system. That's one of those fun things that aren't totally necessary, and you can run the halyard as a 1:1. The (primary) halyard of yours may not be long enough for that, though. Rig it and see what happens.

What's at the forward end of that elastic?

If there's only one cleat marked "POLE", it's for the uphaul, and that's with which you adjust the pole angle. The downhaul (as mentioned above) only sets the limit for maximum pole height.

The other V-cleat is for something else - does the label say MA...?

The vang is very, very good to be adjustable from a hiking position. The cunningham, much less so. And the jib halyard you really, really don't need to adjust from the side tank... that would be some extremely high-end fine adjustment!

Yes, they're for the spinnaker sheet. What the picture doesn't show is whether there are additional blocks on the gunwale (as there should), but I assume not, as you didn't include them (and I don't see them in the older pictures, either). They used to be located some 50 to 60 cm forward, but they've crept farther aft over the years so they're right at the transom on all boats now.

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Thanks again for your generous help. I am not sure what the MA? is for but I might run my jib magic box there. The Y-Flyers have a magic box setup the exact same way as the 470 and change the mast rake during races for different conditions (that is where I borrowed the idea). Old timers call if the, "gas pedal" adjustment and many skippers run it back to the mainsheet area to allow for quick changes.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
At this point I had to find out what the Y-Flyer is all about :D So... they sail with about 25 to 45 % less static rig tension than the 470, with a jib that's some 33 % larger. That means that the jib luff is intended to sag, and controlling the amount of it is fairly important!

On the other hand, 470 jibs are built with a straight (or nearly so) luff, and the idea is to have enough tension on the halyard that there is no (or very little) sag in all conditions. Except at the highest level of racing, you don't really adjust it on the water unless you change the shroud settings, too.

"MA..." probably means "mast", and as the jib halyard is the one adjustment that affects it the most, I guess that's where it's intended to cleat. Just add a small block behind the cleat so it's easy to pull in all directions.

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btaylor

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At this point I had to find out what the Y-Flyer is all about :D So... they sail with about 25 to 45 % less static rig tension than the 470, with a jib that's some 33 % larger. That means that the jib luff is intended to sag, and controlling the amount of it is fairly important!

On the other hand, 470 jibs are built with a straight (or nearly so) luff, and the idea is to have enough tension on the halyard that there is no (or very little) sag in all conditions. Except at the highest level of racing, you don't really adjust it on the water unless you change the shroud settings, too.

"MA..." probably means "mast", and as the jib halyard is the one adjustment that affects it the most, I guess that's where it's intended to cleat. Just add a small block behind the cleat so it's easy to pull in all directions.

_
Thanks again for your help. By the way, is there anyway to share more of arekas photos? Especially the trapeze setup. I messed up and disassembled the lower block system for the port and starboard trapeze on my 470 (all of the trapeze stuff was in a box when I bought the boat so I did think and robbed the hardware for other uses).
 
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