Class Politics Replica Gear: Let's Get It All Out In The Open!!

I'll leave that question for Clive and Tracy. They're on the technical committee.
 
The sail design issue is also one of performance. The current sail was slowed down so it wouldn't obsolete the 3.2oz sails overnight. They could have made a better faster sail but choose to look after the existing sailors and their investments.

Laser is not about building a faster boat, it is about building a whole bunch of boats the same speed.

And Alan, replica's are an issue in Australia. I know of one district where most sailors have replica's and they are even used in the district championships.

This has been done before in other (admittedly much smaller) classes. The way to handle it would be to offer the 'new' sail at a signidicant discount for the first 12 months. This may tie in with a lot of people choosing to change their sail anyway. Yes their will be a transition period where there will be the 'haves' and 'have nots' but that will be relatively short lived. If the sail is kept the same size then the differences should be minimal.

My 2p is on the Hyde design, admittedly a major departure from the current cut of sail but the North effort looks like it was done by an apprentice on his first day.

Perhaps a bit more news floating around on the sail development program would not go amiss either....
 
I'll again repeat because people still haven't worked it out, sail specifications (tolerances) has absolutely nothing to do with the licensed builders or licensed sailmakers, they merely need to chose a cloth that fits within those tolerances following the guidelines set for the construction. The ILCA technical committee is the one that specifies the properties of the sail cloths that can be used.

Who has responsibility for the different aspects of the sail design, pricing, etc. is only one aspect to the current widespread (?) use of knock-offs. There is also an aspect about who can discourage their adoption/use. So whilst the class association might have nothing to do with pricing and whilst the builders might have nothing to do with the sail specifications, the different organisations can help discourage clubs from allowing use of these replica sails/equipment.

Ian
 
I know that protype new sails have been being tested for the last 12-18 months. Part of the problem is getting the sail right because it hasn't been changed for so long.

It is interesting to note that within the class there is a lot of experience of using the same sail design but with a heavier production sail cloth (i.e. the replca sails). Thus, if just switching to a heavier cloth made no difference then one would think the Technical Committee would be aware of this and minimal testing would be required. Thus, maybe the switch to a heavier cloth does make more of a difference that many think when looked at in more detail. I know a year or so ago one of the knock-off manufacturers who participate here made the claim on this forum that their sails were faster http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7627&highlight=faster&page=2 (2nd post on page 2, point 6) - but when it was pointed out to them that this should cause their use to be banned by all they quickly withdrew the claimhttp://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7665&highlight=faster

Ian
 
This is a strange debate. Many contributions to main issue adressed by ALJM – whether or not we should have better and cheaper sails as class-legal sails – are completely beside the point.

Many posts are even misleading, like BJ09’s on trademark rights. To the class it shouldn’t matter what trademark is used for marketing a class-legal sail; any or none could be used as far as we, the consumers, are concerned; the use of a trademark does not influence the characteristics of a sail or the class rules on equipment – unless the class rules state so, which should be an option up to debate here.

It’s not about questioning the one-design principle of the class either. I haven’t read a single post here advocating a construction or measurement class, even for certain parts like sails only. Apparently there has been on single incident, in which somebody actually showed up to major event with a non-legal sail, one in a thousand. And we haven’t heard from him – or about him – whether or not he was even aware of that fact. So why the big fuss?

It’s not about a one-builder-only policy either. There are two brands and at least two manufacturers currently producing the class-legal sail and nobody here is questioning that.

It’s the product and it's price that’s being questioned.

I believe the debate here, on the ILCA forum, should center around

a. whether or not the class members are happy with the current situation

and, if the answer is no,

b. what we can do to improve the situation.

The majority in this thread clearly is not completely happy with the current situation. Many comments show, that that feeling is wide-spread, beyond the members assembled here. People are buying non-class-legal sails in large numbers inspite of their obvious disadvantage of not being class legal, even if the race regularily. Many feel the sails currently sold as class legal are too expensive for what they are worth and that they do not last long enough.


Therefore: what can we do about it?

I believe the class should call on sail makers world wide, or a selection of them, to compete for the right to supply the class legal sail to the class. Give them the specs that we want, not only for the sail itself, but for the numbers and the distrubtion worldwide, and let them bid. Then chose the one who’s offer looks the most promising.

That will probably not only depend on the price per sail but also on the reputation of the builder, their quality history, and their assumed ability to supply large numbers for a longer period of time throughout the world.

Publish the bids, the decision and the reasons for the decision in detail.

Why, Tracy, isn’t this the approach of the technical committee? Or is it?
 
---snip---
I believe the class should call on sail makers world wide, or a selection of them, to compete for the right to supply the class legal sail to the class. Give them the specs that we want, not only for the sail itself, but for the numbers and the distrubtion worldwide, and let them bid. Then chose the one who’s offer looks the most promising.

That will probably not only depend on the price per sail but also on the reputation of the builder, their quality history, and their assumed ability to supply large numbers for a longer period of time throughout the world.

Publish the bids, the decision and the reasons for the decision in detail.

Why, Tracy, isn’t this the approach of the technical committee? Or is it?

It's not the approach for the simple reason that the "class" (who or whatever you think that is) does not determine who supplies the sails, numbers and distribution.

It's the builder's decision as to who supplies the sails, what the end user price is, and what the distribution method is.
 
Wahhh wahhh wahhh. Someone is making our stuff. Waahhh.

I have two bitch's with the system.
1-Everything else is being updated vang outhaul Cunningham and blocks even now with blades (STUPID decision) and no one was complaining about them nearly as much as the sail situation. Harken is the only upgrade manIsheet traveler block supplier so there's the monoply.
2-And with North's sails being made in Shri Lanka it could not get further from a real sailmaker shop. Shri Lanka is off the coast of where? Oh yeah, CHINA!!!!!!

So test and discover what knockoff guys already know. Use a more modern material and the same cut. Done.

As far as the other parts well you have your stickers for that.
 
2-And with North's sails being made in Shri Lanka it could not get further from a real sailmaker shop. Shri Lanka is off the coast of where? Oh yeah, CHINA!!!!!!

LOL

Sri Lanka is an Island on the eastern side of the southern tip of India.
 
Even more my point.

Note to self. That is the last time I buy a "knock-off" globe!


If the sails were made in the USA and put our neighbors to work maybe the $530-$650 price tag would not be to bad.
 
My 2p is on the Hyde design, admittedly a major departure from the current cut of sail but the North effort looks like it was done by an apprentice on his first day.

Total agreement with you, Jeffers. When I saw the North "upgrade" it looked like someone spent a couple of hours and quickly put something together to say "We have an upgrade too!". If the sail design is going to change, let's make some real progress.
 
Total agreement with you, Jeffers. When I saw the North "upgrade" it looked like someone spent a couple of hours and quickly put something together to say "We have an upgrade too!". If the sail design is going to change, let's make some real progress.

North built at least 5 different prototypes to the guidelines set forth by the builder, including one more or less identical to Hyde model that is being tested. Only the builder can answer as to why they picked the prototypes they did for testing.

I'd guess that Hyde built more then one also.
 
Once again...without advocating I am explaining...

I believe Der dude is suggesting this:

The builders can supply any old rag they choose.

The ILCA can vote to allow any old rag it chooses.

Curently the ILCA approves only of the builder supplied rag and does so without question..

The ILCA could host a contest of its own and tell the builder>>
We have found a sail we like. We trust the manufacturer and we intend to make that sail the new class legal sail.

The class will be marketing the sail and distribuiting the sail. if the builders would like to purchase the Class approved sail from the class, we will happily work to supply your needs.

Sails without the class approved patch will not be allowed on the race course after June 5th 2011.

_+_+_+_+_+_+

Fred's comment?? That sail supply business would by itself be larger than teh sum of all the existing laser class associations. I do not think such a system is currently a viable option.

it certainly would be nice to be able to tell the builders, "We have an alternative and we will be using that alternative unless you either significantly lower your prices or begin to deliver a much more consitently manufaturerd and durable product."

I don't believe the class is in that position , wants to be in that position, or even that it could be in that position

So, realistically? Unless the monopoly builder decides to lower its profit margins and raise its manufactuing expenses..The status Quo will rule.
 
...

Fred's comment?? That sail supply business would by itself be larger than teh sum of all the existing laser class associations. I do not think such a system is currently a viable option.

it certainly would be nice to be able to tell the builders, "We have an alternative and we will be using that alternative unless you either significantly lower your prices or begin to deliver a much more consitently manufaturerd and durable product."

I don't believe the class is in that position , wants to be in that position, or even that it could be in that position

Why?

And why would the Class necessarily have to distribute the sails? Why wouldn't the regular supply chain through your local boat shop work for the new class approved sail by XYZ for the Laser?
 

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