Reefing

dclarke

New Member
I just got my copy of the Complete Guide to Laser sailing. In it, the author mentions you can reef the sail by wrapping it around the mast to decrease the surface area of the sail.

I'm thinking, great, as I am a little worried about the boat being a bit much for me, a novice.

Have any of you done this? Is it as straightforward as it sounds??

I'm not out to win any races....yet.
 
I've heard it works but I've also heard that its not very good for a sail - it stresses it and stretches it out of shape.
 
It's a nice way for not having to lose a day of training if it's too windy.
The sail losses it's shape, so you won't be able to sail as close hauled as if you were going out with the "unreefed" sail.

I only do it with a training sail; reefing, plus having a lot of wind stresses the sail a lot. I'd be a money loss to do this with a new one.


Cheers.
 
the new vang and the radial/4.7 rigs make it easier to have the right sail plan for the right conditions.

I've never done it, but you can certainly do a few wraps around the mast (don't ask me how many, 1.5 to 2?) to lessen sail area.
 
Reefing is just a bad idea. If your not comfortable in heavy wind, go with a Radial or sit on the dock with a nice cold one, there is no shame in being safe!

Reefing the sail will damage it.

Cheers
Mark
 
howdy folks , newby on the block .
I'd never thought about reefing causing damage , but I think the best thing for gaining confidence is working the way up from 4.7 radial to full laser.
Ive shown people how to sail when we had only full rigs , the 4.7 is a breath of fresh air , at least the sail doesn't overpower the rudder as easily & a 47 reefed is a real kitten.
speed freeks (dalgety bay web ? ) has a lasr 4.7 well up the charts.
I think the damage caused by reefing would depend how much stress yer puttin on the rig
if its an old sail gerrout n have fun
;-)
 
I have reefed the sail in this manner to get home when a squall came through and I was 10 miles from home...it works if you are stuck.
 
Ok, so, the original designer says fine....Dick Tillman says its fine, and someone posted they do it regularly and have no trouble.

So, methinks its fine...especially if I'm not out in heavy winds...so I'll try it until I get the feel of the boat and let you know if theres any damage.
 
dclarke said:
Ok, so, the original designer says fine....Dick Tillman says its fine, and someone posted they do it regularly and have no trouble.

So, methinks its fine...especially if I'm not out in heavy winds...so I'll try it until I get the feel of the boat and let you know if theres any damage.


What would he say if I told him I seen a sail rip while reefed? Obviously, it may not have been just cause of the reefing, but I'm sure it didn't help.

And just to add a log onto the fire. Why would they make Radial sails or a 4.7 if all we have to do is Reef and all is good, no damage and we achieve the same thing? Should lighter people not bother buying the smaller sails and rigging? Food for thought!!

Cheers
Mark
 
Why would they make Radial sails or a 4.7 if all we have to do is Reef and all is good, no damage and we achieve the same thing? Should lighter people not bother buying the smaller sails and rigging? Food for thought!!

Cheers
Mark[/quote]

Ummm...here's a wild idea. They make smaller rigs because they can make money.
 
Skipper Johnson said:
Why would they make Radial sails or a 4.7 if all we have to do is Reef and all is good, no damage and we achieve the same thing? Should lighter people not bother buying the smaller sails and rigging? Food for thought!!Cheers
Mark


With reefing you don't have much control over sail shape. It's not ideal. It's a stop gap measure.
 
Hi all,

we have 3 standard lasers (old rigging) that are regularly used by many different people, including low-weight girls and, when the wind is really light, even by young people coming from optimists.

We don't have any radial or 4.7 by now. However, we do have some old standard sails that we don't care too much if they get damaged. So, I've thought that this idea of reefing could help more people to try the laser, a experience they will never forget!

Now, here is my question: when you reef the sail, how do you set the cunningham to work properly? I mean, if you put it in the original hole, I guess it will not work, since it is pulling from the part of the sail that it is rolled now.

Pedro.
 
cabalar said:
Now, here is my question: when you reef the sail, how do you set the cunningham to work properly? I mean, if you put it in the original hole, I guess it will not work, since it is pulling from the part of the sail that it is rolled now.
Pedro.

That is why reefing is not ideal. You can no longer use the cunningham, as far as I know. It's 3 turns around the mast--any less and I read that it slips, so you also need a longer outhaul.
 
According to Tillman, if you reef the sail, you pull the cunningham tight before you reef. But, if you're reefing, as I would, because you are new to the boat and want to make sure you're not over-powered, would you really care about working the cunningham?
 
Pulling on the cunningham makes it marginally easier to wrap the sail, ie the tack tends to wrap around at the same time as the head and and middle of the luff. Once the wraps are in, the cunningham has no effect on sail shape, so there is no need to adjust it.
 
In the newer version of Tillam's book does he still mention reefing in this manner?

This was popular back in 74 & 75 but not much after that. I found that the only advantage it gave was that you could reduce sail area. I was hard to use any sail controls and sail shape could be only marginally affected by outhaul vang and cunningham.
 
Again as I said before:

----
The question of reefing is still bugging me. Recently while at club in Toronto I noticed the original Laser sail designer (Hans Fogh) is over at the crane hauling his Etchells.

I ask him: "Does reefing a sail with a few wraps around the mast do any damage?"

He laughs and says "no". And to paraphrase further: "Coaches in sailing schools still recommend reefing. The laser sail does not have a finish on it and it should not hurt it at all. Maybe cause a few wrinkles, but nothing else."

He goes on to describe the difference beween unfinshed and finished sails in technical detail, etc.

So there is the answer from the original designer - IT WILL CAUSE NO DAMAGE.
-----
 
Not to sound rude towards Hans...but did he not design the boat not the sail? For give my ignorance if I'm wrong. Any how I know your situation. what you need to understand is a community club only has a certain amount of money for new sails and they get replaced every 3 to 4 years. So the club would like to keep them in the best condition possible. Cause once a sail is gone, there is no replaceing it for a couple of years. See what I'm getting at. By all means buy your own sail (as many do) and do what you will with it!

This isn't a discussion for the laser forum. Sorry to everyone.

Cheers
Mark
 
You were responding to a posted thread, and giving your take on what your dicision making process is regarding reefing. Sounds like an appropriate post for the Laser Forum to me.
 
dclarke said:
You were responding to a posted thread, and giving your take on what your dicision making process is regarding reefing. Sounds like an appropriate post for the Laser Forum to me.


Sorry what I ment is Crooked Beat has an issue with a club policy (we belong to the same club) and the club policy shouldn't be debated on the forum.

Cheers
Mark
 
archcat said:
Not to sound rude towards Hans...but did he not design the boat not the sail?

No, Hans and his company designed and built the the sails. Bruce Kirby designed the boat.
 
I've reefed a few times, both before setting out and while on the water, I've never done it with a brand new race sail, but then again, why take a brand new race sail out in big air? I mean really? why risk it becomeing rags? I have a club racing sail a good racing sail, and a few beat up practice sails. The ONLY two things I've noticed with reefing is this, you can't point as high on one tack opposed to the other and you can't get more then three turns because of the top batten. I'm pretty sure if you tried you would damage the sail at the batten pocket. Call that common sense. -Skip
 
I've tried a reefed sail a couple times in the past when the wind was really honking and it worked ok. As previously mentioned, you lose any ability to change the sail shape but when the wind is so strong that you need to reef the shape you need the most is pretty flat anyway.

To reef properly you absolutely must get adequate tension on the cunningham first. If you don't, you might not get the sail rolled up tightly enough. In a couple cases where I've seen that happen the middle of the luff ballooned out making a really weird looking sail shape and probably defeated the point of reefing by powering up the sail. So crank the cunningham on tight and then roll it up. I've found that rolling it up until you get to the top batten is usually sufficient, if you need more wraps you'll have to take the top batten out. And yes, you will probably need a longer outhaul if you don't have enough play in you regualr one.

As to damage to the sail, I would guess that the reefing isn't what damages the sail so much as the strong wind -- sailing in strong enough winds will also take something out of the sail regardless of whether you're reefed or not. In fact, without a reef you're probably going to luff the sail more and flogging is probably the worst thing you can do to the sail. In any case I wouldn't take my best sail out in 30 knots unless I was racing and then I wouldn't be reefing anyway. . .

I am also not certain that going down to a radial or 4.7 rig is the best option for an adult even if they have the luxury of having them available. If you're well within the weight range for the radial then fine but otherwise you may risk more damage than just the sail. Aren't the walls of the radial bottom section thinner than the standard bottom section so it is bendy enough? Seems like if a big guy like me got on a radial in strong enough winds it would be asking to break stuff. Hence reefing can be a viable option.

-Steve
 
Here is some more info about the lack of resin in the sail, from the Laser email List:

"...When a skipper pulls hard on the mainsheet and then the vang the sail flattens out because of the mast bend that is induced by these controls. When the sail is flat like that is starts to wear out . When The outhaul is applied and the downhaul is applied the sail stretches even more. In order for this sail to flatten out, there is very little resin applied to the cloth. The cloth moves around like the fibers in a burlap bag. The fibers in the cloth move back and forth just a little bit, but it is enough to allow for the sail to be flattened out in the breeze or become baggy in light breeze. This stretch is called bias stretch. This bias stretch is supposed to be there. It is designed into the sail. If the sail cloth had lots of resin in it, the sail would be hard and crinkly like a Star boat main sail, thr would be no bias stretch.. It would never flatten out or never be baggy. It would just hold its shape and never change. Whether you realize it or not, the sail shape changes by the use of the sail controls, the vang, cunningham, dowwnhaul and mainsheet and the traveler.

Fourth, The laser sail is not an inexpensive sail, read cheap-it is designed to be loose with little resin in it for the above mentioned reasons. It one were to make a kevlar or spectra sail, depending on how it is cut. A flat sail would be better in big breeze than a baggy sail and vice-versa. the laser sail is designed to be a general all purpose sail-it has to be...."
 

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