Recommendations on cunningham/outhaul kits?

GeoffS

GeoffS

Member
I'm getting ready to upgrade the running rigging on my Laser to the "new stuff". The vang seems pretty much a no-brainer: the Harken pre-rigged package looks about as good as it gets.

However, there seem to be nearly an infinite number of variations on the theme of rigging the outhaul and cunningham. I've read all the drLaser stuff and the various discussions of the new rigging, so I'm pretty confident I could design a workable system if I had to. If there was a "good enough" pre-packaged kit it would save me having to think (and sometimes that's a very good thing). I'm just a club/district racer (and not a particularly good one at that), so I have no need for the "very best". What I'm really looking for is a "best buy" with "good enough" performance and resonable price.

Last time I looked (last summer), there were a great many kits available. I was wondering if anyone has particular recommendations (or cautions) about any of them.

A couple of misc. informational bits:
  1. I'm not sure what amount of purchase would be best. I'm in the "100 kilo club" (as they say in the DN iceboat class), but I have some elbow tendon problems, so I'm leaning toward slightly more purchase than the minimum.
  2. Since I live just down the road from Pewaukee, I have a slight preference for Harken hardware. I'm particularly enamored of the Harken cleats.

Cheers,

Geoff Sobering
DN US-5156/Laser 145234/Renegade 510
 
Hi Geoff, I'm a relative newbie to laser sailing ( 2 seasons) and bought the "Turbo Pack" upgrade almost as soon as I bought my first old laser. This pack is based on the Harken vang, Ronstan camcleats and Ronstan blocks. It all worked fine for me, straight out of the box, although as you say, if you just get the deck mounting and cam cleats you could easily put your own outhaul + cunningham system together. I'm only in the 65kg, radial class, so I guess my advice on purchase ratios isn't very relevant.
The only problem I've just had is that the ropes provided for Cunningham and outhaul (they don't specify what diameter thay are but I suspect 4mm) have started slipping through the cleats - after 2 seasons of use. So I've had to go up to slightly thicker ropes.
Alan
 
abenn said:
The only problem I've just had is that the ropes provided for Cunningham and outhaul (they don't specify what diameter thay are but I suspect 4mm) have started slipping through the cleats - after 2 seasons of use. So I've had to go up to slightly thicker ropes.
Alan
Click to expand...

If you have the Ronstan cleat, chances are the teeth are wearing. The good news is the design of the cleat allows you to take them apart and reverse them on the posts, putting fresh teeth against the line.
 
Regarding cunningham/Outhaul

I find 8-1 on the cunn plenty of power on the full rig (The kit defaults to 10-1, just leaving off one leg of the puchase is what I did)

On the outhaul, I found the original 4-1 in the early kits was not enough power in a blow to tighten it upwind. I switched to 6-1 and that did the trick. I'm not positive, but I believe the outhaul kits for sale now may be 6-1. The ability of the clew tie down to slide along the boom also plays a role in how powerful the outhaul needs to be.

Regarding choice of blocks - I found using the Harken 16mm airblocks, that the the supplied line in the kit is not free-running - I changed down to 3.8mm and the problem was solved.

APS in Annapolis seems to have the biggest "menu" for building your own if you choose that route. If nothing else, between that and drLaser you'll have more then enough variations to cover most possibilities.
 
Whether you choose to buy the off the shelf kit or build your own, go with a 6:1 outhaul for both power and precision of adjustment. One of the comments we got the most when the 4:1 kit was first introduced was "I often find myself pulling too much and then having to let it back out again." With the 6:1 outhaul, this has gone away.
The line that Vanguard supplies with the vangs is low stretch Dyneema which is quite stiff initially, then gets quite a bit more supple with use.
Many people find 10:1 cunningham to be a lot of purchase. If you are bigger, it is easy to either drop a part out of the standard kit or just build yourself a 6:1 system.
I personally very much prefer the Harken vang system as there is never a cross in the purchase as you rig it. The Holt vang has a friction-inducing line cross.
I also think Harken cleats are great.
 
Hi,

If you want to keep the expense down, I'd consider using the old cleats on the outhaul and cham (if metal). You can rig 6:1 on the c-ham for about 17. , and 6:1 outhaul with quick release kit for 28. or so. These are great additions, as the cleats work easily with the load at the cleat cut to 1/3 or less. You are essentially paying 150. to bring the outhaul to the center of the deck, if you buy the full kit. I don't find that to be a particularily great place for it when fully hiked, although Harkin now has "extreme" angle fairleads to try and help the problem. I've recently learned that the outhaul can pass thru the original c-ham eye by the mast, if deck led, yet cleat on the boom. I'll try that this summer. What that means is that you are paying 150. just to uncleat the outhaul (if you have extreme angle fairleads) which is an even more silly expense, I believe.

The Harken vang is cool, and any 15:1 vang is a hugh improvement (I sail a J24 with 8:1, so we sit on the boom to trim it.). I don't use the Harken, partly because I'm cheap, have a lot of boats to keep up, and boxes of parts, etc. Also, people were worried about their Harkens, so took them off every time, which I don't have time for. I use a 15:1 "optional" made of leftovers like the drlaser diagram, upside down, and love it. About 37. if you don't have a box full of leftovers.

As you already know, it's time in the boat that matters most.

I've got the cronic "elbow" stuff too. Put main sheet cleats on, get "sticky" gloves, a massage therapist for a girl friend, and take a few weeks off after putting that DN away! lol

Al Russell 66451
 
Al!

Now you have me all ears!

"...and 6:1 outhaul with QUICK RELEASE KIT"...

Educate me! What is this "quick release kit"??? Please describe.

I've been working on one such "remote release" device. Maybe there's no use in re-inventing the wheel!

Shevy
 
Ah, sorry Doc,

I meant the Harken clew hook (as is sail quick release?) Sorry to get you all excited;-)

I know you have worked on the remote release set up, and I'm certainly all ears when you need beta testing. I am excited to have the outhaul tail on the deck, thru the c-ham eye, and a block on the outhaul cleat bridge, to get the 6:1 astern of the cleat, as we discussed elsewhere. Any good ideas where to tie the tail, so it doesn't go overboard all the time?

Al Russell 66451
 
My view is that the related new Interpretation is a "permissive" one, allowing the attachment of a block DIRECTLY to the clam cleat (for example via its bridge). It's not an interpretation limiting the NUMBER of blocks that can be attached to the clam cleat (via a control line, or as the Interpretations now allow, via separate lines).

If so, you can have both a 6:1 puchase aft of the cleat plus what I call a "Remote Uncleating" system ON the cleat.

Of course, I'm no measurer.

I was intending to shackle a block to the clam cleat and use a separate line leading through that block to UNCLEAT the outhaul control line from the clam cleat REMOTELY, from the deck. That would be a major improvement for those who continue using a boom-cleated outhaul system. The search for appropriate (off-the-shelf or custom) shackles is still continuing.

The design I envisioned is problemmatic because it challenges the shady areas of the Rules, in particular what "joining lines" means and what "attaching a block" means.

As for where to tie your old-system outhaul control line now coming through the c-ham fairlead... Attach it to the end of your cunningham line! BEFORE each tack, you just throw both overboard on the DOWN (leeward) side. After you complete the tack and switch sides, you will find it right next to you on the new high side deck.

I actually have a tried and tested design that automatically MOVES all control line ends to the high side gunwale after each tack or gybe, but that's too radical to mention. It capitalizes on the rule that allows using "clips", the rule that allows tying the ends of the control line ends together and/or to "deck fittings", plus on ambiguities in what are included in "deck fittings".

Cheers,

Shevy
 
Al Russell wrote:
> I know you have worked on the remote release set up, and I'm certainly all ears

Al,

Check out the "Laser Class & Politics" board for a preliminary view...

SG
 
I have been using the Ronstan cam cleat setup (for the cunningham and outhaul control on the deck) and wish that there was a wedge beneath the mounting plate that increased the angle as I have frequently found the lines have become inadvertently (and unknowingly) disengaged as well as difficult to engage when I needed to be hiking hard.

I can't recall with the necessary accuracy but it seemed in looking at other (Harken?) setups, the "exit line height" on the aft side of their setup was several millimeters higher than the Ronstan. Any suggestions?
 
As of May 2002, what we know at drLaser is that on the deck cleat base, the Australian Builder supplies the RF5001 series cleats (not carbon but a tough composite), with RF5005 "Fast Track" fairleads at the front end, and RF5004 rope guides at the back.

IMHO, the use of RF5004 rope guides at the back has always been illegal. The rope guides that come with the deck cleat base are part of the assembly and can not be replaced. I don't know if Australia has continued to ship thei builder-supplied assembly with the RF5004 rope guides or whether this has been corrected.

The deck cleat base is raised and angled so that you do not need a raised base or wedge kits for the HOLT Alanite cam cleats (commonly used in Europe) for which this cleat base was designed.

However, the HOLT Alanite camcleats have bases (the part right under the jaws) which are about 3mm higher than the bases used by Harken or Ronstan camcleats. Thus, experience in Europa and Australia has shown that the metal fairleads that are (Builder-)supplied with the deck cleat base are too high to keep the control line sufficiently down and low in the jaws if Ronstan or Harken camcleats are used. When the control line is led too high into the cleat, it is reported that the jaws do not always positively cleat the line, and occasionally the line gets pulled free of the jaws after you cleat it.

As a cure, some sailors have started using a 3mm flat spacer/riser or two opposing (cross mounted) 3mm wedges (as shown in the Ronstan kit photo on drLaser article "Deck Plates & Upgrade Kits for Laser 2000") between the deck cleat base and the cleat. Another trend in Australia has been to bend out (and thus lower) the metal aft fairleads so that the line is led lower into the Ronstan camcleats.

It is reported that without a spacer, your pull on the control line must be parallel to the deck for Harken or Ronstan camcleats (without spacers) to work positively. After adding the spacer, you don't even need to even think about how you pull on the control line: it always cleats when pulled.

All the above is from the drLaser article "Deck Plates & Upgrade Kits for Laser 2000". In general, check there first. We will not and can not replicate that web site's content here.

For the Ronstan camcleats you are interested in in particular, the Ronstan wedge appropriate is the RF5002. It weighs 5 grams. (See "Blocks, Cleats and Accessories for Laser 2000 Control Systems" on drLaser.)


Shevy Gunter
Editor, drLaser
 
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