Class Politics Proposed Rule Change - Rhombus on women's sails

Give me a break! If I only wanted to race against other women, I certainly wouldn't choose to race Lasers, except for specific Olympic regattas where I would get a separate start. Since I am small, old and arthritic it's not likely I will sail any of those events, but . . . a Master's Worlds regatta still holds appeal.

When I enter a regatta in a fleet of Rads in which there are 42 guys and 4 women, I expect to compete with 45 other sailors. Making those four female sailors display a "rhombus" on their sails would be a blantantly sexist move.

Aren't there few enough women sailing regular Laser events already? Take a look at the entry list of the Masters event last weekend - one woman. I hoped when Radials became Olympic, it would encourage more women to continue racing Lasers past college. This kind of stupidity will discourage them, no doubt in my mind.

I fought Jeff Martin about this ridiculous idea at the Masters Worlds in Chile in 1997 and ever since. There were two women racing Radials in the event that year. Five minutes into the practice day I knew my fellow female's sail number. When we got ashore, Jeff Martin presented Leslie and I with his red stickers to apply to our sails. I promptly - right in front of him - stuck it where it belonged, and sailed the regatta with it firmly stuck to the seat of my hiking pants.

There obviously is no female representative on the Laser World Council at the moment. For this rule change proposal to get through to the voting stage, your WC members must have been asleep or . . . dare I suggest, in the wc.

Come on, Guys! Sailing is one sport that has a relatively level playing field for men and women of comparable skill and size. Either race against us fair and square, or give us a separate start if you must segregate us.

I know some guys have a lot of trouble with getting "beat by a girl". Get over it! As for me, I just want to race and I don't care if my competition is male or female. I came to compete and in Lasers the size of the fleet is a big part of the appeal.

Lainie
 
Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. why would girl sailors want special marks on their sails ? (Maybe I'm not "liberated" or maybe not a "new man" but I thought they should be able to use the same sails as everybody else)


Ian
 
hey, here in europe, a lot of girls sail laser. And they really care to see the other girls as fast as posible mainly for competing for the female ranking and the ticket to WC-EC. I dont think these girls see it as discrimination. The masters dont nag about there colored tape around their mast.
 
What's the problem with having a sail marking? As Bel mentioned, we have to use them in some classes to denote Masters, and it's no problem. My girlfriend has women's markings on her sails and neither she nor the 3 time Olympian she bought the sails from has a problem with it.

If you come to the Masters Worlds in Australia you'll have plenty of women to sail against. I think we had about 13 women in our Radial State Masters title alone, never mind the Nationals.
 
Bel: Many girls sail Radials in NA, too. Surely for regattas that count for female rankings and WC-EC tickets, girls would be given a separate start? If not, then they should.

I am a master and no, I do not nag about the colored tape - that is for scoring purposes, not to differentiate me from other age groups on the course while racing.

What if your master age group was designated by a big sticker on your sail?

What if you were racing a masters regatta and somebody in the apprentice group was trying to pass you to windward on a reaching leg. When you luff him, he says "but we are not even competing with each other". Do you then feel obliged to let him roll over you? I don't.

When I start a race, I'm racing against everybody who started with me, not just the people who are the same age, or same sex as me. I paid the regatta entry fee to race with the whole fleet. If there are certain sailors in the fleet that I want to especially look for, I know their sail numbers.
 
why on earth should women get a separate start? if its the NA's, World's, or Olympics, thats the only time there should be one, even then for NA's and Worlds, they have open, so its all good

it all sounds kinda ridiculous to me, don't change the rule
 
I am a master and no, I do not nag about the colored tape - that is for scoring purposes, not to differentiate me from other age groups on the course while racing.

Sorry, I don't understand how it's for scoring purposes. Any decent scoring program can figure out the age splits based on sail # alone. Last thing I would want to do if I am recording finishes is have to deal with two pieces of info for each finisher

When I start a race, I'm racing against everybody who started with me, not just the people who are the same age, or same sex as me. I paid the regatta entry fee to race with the whole fleet. If there are certain sailors in the fleet that I want to especially look for, I know their sail numbers.

Agree for open events, but in Masters regattas, with the handicap scoring, it's much easier as a competitor to keep track of boats and points when everyone has their age group streamer/mast wrap or whatever designator.

If the proposed marker helps the women in the same regard in a mixed fleet, I don't have a problem voting for it.
 
I don't have an opinion as to whether or not female and male sailors should be distinguished by sail markings. But if female sailors have to put something on their sail, then shouldn't male sailors also have to also?
 
I always believed that 2 boats sailing in appoximately the same direction constituted a race. And I don't give a rats ass what age, sex, class or anything else I am going to do my damndest to beat them. It's up to the the time keepers to figure out who is who. If they need pink polka dots to figure it out then why should I worry about it, personally I think sail numbers work just fine.
 
Hec, I do NOT want to sail against just women. I want to sail against everybody, all the time. You had 13 women racing in your Radial Masters Nationals, but how many sailors in the whole fleet? I don't want to go to that regatta to race against 13 women I want to race against 50 or 75 other Laser sailors.

Making me put a sticker on my sail designates me as sailing in a sub-group consisting of women only. Just because a regatta chooses to give out a trophy for "1st Female" doesn't mean that's the prize I am racing for.

Garry, you said it in a lot less words than I did - sail numbers work fine and when it comes down to it, that's what Race Committees record on the finish line.

I see no good reason to segregate the fleet, and many reasons not to.

Lainie
 
You've convinced me that no extra markings should be mandatory, because it is a form of discrimination. For that matter, so is scoring males and females separately. If every one sails as, and is scored as, one fleet there will be no discrimination, and the level of competition will rise.
 
Why pick on people based on sex??
Let's give all the people who weigh under 200 lbs pink sails!!
 
Sorry, I get it now (thought the girls wanted their own private race). One good thing for the girls about having their own private races is that they will get better results (around me often coming 1st or 2nd - as there might only be one or two competitors !!).


I agree 100% with the opinion that everybody should be able to race against everybody else and there should not be any small select group who can only race against their own sex !!. I'm lighter than some women, heavier than others; stronger than some, weaker than others. I find it interesting that I've noticed one girl sailing radials who is ranked much higher than the majority of men (sailing on the sea thus a bit more wind as well).


Must confess I don't get a vote (the Laser Association here is a "money pit" and I've been unable to contact then for the last 5 months and regattas I want to do have said I am not alone in my opinions so for Lasers they don't require Class Assn Membership). However, from what I've read here I have the decided impression that the Class Association does not have enough to do with their time so they seem to keep wanting to interfere with things that are working perfectly well - which is daft in the extreme.


If I had a vote I would vote against such changes. It works both ways (though is probably more important for the girls as male fleets would be larger). I would prefer to race against everybody (men and women) and thus have bigger fleets. Why split on sex. If you are going to split on sex, then why not on weight. Hang on, lets have a push-ups competition at the start of each regatta and the stronger group race against each other, etc. Better still, lets use hair colour, then you would not need to start sticking things on your sail.


Ian
 
Maybe other fleets have adopted similar schemes !!


http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jch64uk/detail?.dir=/ffdare2&.dnm=cbb6re2.jpg&.src=ph


Shows somebody competing with 2 women under over the age of 36, plus the skipper had a dog. In addition, their "category" is that they are competing against other two car families who own Chrysler SUVs. Apparently the green flag on the starboard shroud shows they are entered in the group with average crew income is in the $25 000 to $50 000 range. They won their "class" (being the only entrant) despite being unable to hoist any sails for the race due to all the other stuff they were required to display.


Ian
 
I'm going to focus just on the explanation given by the WC:
>>>>>
EXPLANATION: The requirement of a red rhombus on the sail has been ILCA policy at world and continental championships for a number of years. Since the Laser Radial was selected as Olympic equipment Women’s Laser Radial sailing has dramatically increased. At large multi Olympic class regattas and at our own class regattas it is helpful for sailors and race committee to identify different fleets. The Red Rhombus makes it easy to identify between men’s and women’s Laser Radial fleets and also between women’s Laser Radial fleets and men’s Laser Standard rig fleets.
<<<<

Again, I ask why is an additional marking needed by the RC. Sail # is all that should be needed. The last line is especially funny, if someone can't tell the diff between a Radial and Standard rig, perhaps they should not be competing or on the RC

I understand that some here feel there shouldn't be mixed fleets with separate scoring and that everyone should be scored based as one fleet. But until that happens, no one here has really argued against the fact that it makes it easier for a competitor to keep track of their competition when they are sailing in mixed fleets, but being scored separatly.

IMHO, all this would be a none issue and not nec if NO countries used mixed events to determine rankings,selection to national teams, Olympic reps for the Women's Radial designation.

Lastly, no one has pointed out the fact that the placement of the rhombus makes anyone that has to put it on a much easier target to ID for the RC for being over the line at the start, and perhaps for drawing undue attention of judges during a race. Why not place it in the bottom panel near the leech, in conjunction with country ID..

Oops, I just said Country ID - perhaps we can have another debate on why that should or shouldn't be needed.
 
One aspect is that, as far as I am aware, a boat identifies only itself (i.e. a boat can be sailed by anybody). Thus sail number 123456 could be sailed by Mr. Blobby in one regatta and by Mrs. Blobby in another (the Blobby is a British thing). Thus, would they now require their own sails (with the same number ?) or is it a case of Mr. Blobby having to carry around a bottle of Acetone to clear up/off the Red sticker !!


Re: Recognising Radials: In France Radials tend to have blue corners. I used to think it was just a clew but seem to be loads with all 3 corners with blue patches (I have a standard myself - at the moment). Thus the last line (from the above WC explanation) is a load of rubbish - there are already marking to distinguish between Standard and radial boats.


Why can't these committees get on with addressing real issues rather than "creating issues".


Ian
 
One aspect is that, as far as I am aware, a boat identifies only itself (i.e. a boat can be sailed by anybody). Thus sail number 123456 could be sailed by Mr. Blobby in one regatta and by Mrs. Blobby in another (the Blobby is a British thing). Thus, would they now require their own sails (with the same number ?) or is it a case of Mr. Blobby having to carry around a bottle of Acetone to clear up/off the Red sticker !!


Re: Recognising Radials: In France Radials tend to have blue corners. I used to think it was just a clew but seem to be loads with all 3 corners with blue patches (I have a standard myself - at the moment). Thus the last line (from the above WC explanation) is a load of rubbish - there are already very clear markings to distinguish between Standard and radial boats.


Why can't these committees get on with addressing real issues rather than "creating issues".


Ian
 
I think that if you truly want to get rid of gender in Laser sailing then you need to take the Laser (men's singlehanded dinghy) and the Radial (women's singlehanded dinghy) out of the Olympics as those two designations have forced gender restrictions where there were none before. On the other hand, the Radial going Olympic has resulted in a large increase in women sailing Radials... so maybe it is worth trying to sort out the issues of having to occasionally deal with the separation of fleets and/or scoring?

I believe that only in Europe are all the ISAF Grade 1 events sailed as separate fleets and only the ISAF grade 2 and lower events are mixed. On the other hand, here in North America we have only two events that are women only for the Radial: The Rolex Miami OCR and the Radial Women's North American Championship. The OCR is women only for Radials (and men only for Lasers) because US Sailing wants to emulate the major Euro OCR events. The Women's NA's was created as a separate event because we were allowed to create a new ISAF Grade 1 event which could then be sandwiched in between the OCR and MWE (making a circuit akin to the Spring Euro events) while letting us continue to move the Laser/Radial/4.7 (all mixed fleets) North Americans around the region. This ciruit has been quite successful with most of the top 20, or so, women in the world training for a month in Florida giving our North American sailors the opportunity to race against, and learn from, the best (well, actually maybe that goes the other way?).

The rest of our events are mixed, including the two other ISAF Grade 1 events: MWE and CORK. As a sport, I think we have to be pretty happy with these events as the number of women racing is a high percentage of the total and it is a very level playing field. For example, about half of the gold fleet at the MWE were women where they took six of the top ten (and all of the top five) positions.

Still, for these events, ISAF only cares about the finish positions of the women, some MNA's use these events for team rankings, etc. So, yes, there is often a regatta within a regatta at these events and it can be useful for the competitors to have a quick way to distinguish the people they really care about.

Having some form of designation on a boat is nothing new to Laser sailing with very large fleets regularly broken into gold/silver/bronze divisions, Masters identified by age groups, etc. In each case, none of these designations have anything to do with scoring, but everything to do with identifying competitors on the water. For example, a large event may have 4 fleets running on one trapezoid, the PRO has an interest in starting fleets as soon as they have finished and having a designator on a boat helps them determine when all the boats in a given fleet have finished. Or, as already mentioned, the designators can help competitors know who their competition is when fleets "collide" (less common on trapezoids but still something that happens). And, of course, the designations also help the competitor remember what fleet they are in (I can have this problem at masters events...).

Gender is one further designation that, whether we like it or not, became important with the Radial Olympic status. Since it doesn't change on a regular basis it is something that could be permanently affixed to the sail (the sail is best since you take the sail to an event where you can charter a boat). Or it could be another ribbon, band, etc., that is affixed temporarily as needed at a major event.

The proposed rule change is something that has been ILCA policy for a number of years and was proposed as a rule change this year from outside the World Council (and,in particular, not from Jeff Martin). It is something that is done in other Olympic Classes, is also done in the Europe Class (and a number of Radial sailors have come from Europes), etc. And, finally, it only applies to certain classes of events, in particular those which are most likely to want some sort of designation.

Still, as with all proposed rule changes, it is up to the class as a whole to vote it up or down. As usual, I encourage everyone out there reading this to join the Laser Class and then vote on this. A proposed rule change needs to pass by 2/3 majority of those voting so a clear majority of class members will need to think this is a good idea for it to become a class rule!
 
RC's do not need any special designation to tell when, for example, a Masters category fleet have all finished. A quick count of the sail numbers they have recorded will tell them this. At big events, the RC routinely has a computer on board, and entry of any given sail number will put it into its class and tell you everything about the person sailing. The scoring program we use tells us any sail numbers that are missing from a given class.

Women racing for rankings etc. are fully capable of recognizing their competition by sail number, hull color, clothing or other means, the same as the men do.

I can be easily recognized by a big floppy red ponytail sticking out of the back of my hat. And my big mouth.

Still, I thought it was a scandalous policy as previously noted, and I'm sure if there were a female member on the World Council this proposal would never have made it to a vote.

Now, with less than 10% of members who usually vote, and class membership probably over 85% male, what are chances that those voting will even THINK about this rule change?
 
I think this idea doesn't go far enough and Gouv's idea for all the lightweight pikers is a great start; -- all the newbies should be required to have "student driver" on their sails (or a red "L" in the UK). The clumsy could have a silhouette of Homer Simpson on their sails. The guys who follow the rules only when it suits them should be required to have a snake or a skull & crossbones on their sail, or perhaps the shape of the rear end of a donkey. Maybe Masters on up should have to replace their sail window with a new, bi-focal sail window. A beer mug shape should be required on the sails of all the guys who will drain the keg so you know who you have to beat back to the bar if you want to get a drink. . .

With a little thought, I'm sure we could come up with a whole lot more categories and labels. We should try for so many that those of us who might fall into several categories will be out there with sails that look like NASCAR refugees.

Or maybe it's all just a scam for whoever makes those rhombuses (rhombi?) to siphon off more Laser sailor's hard earned money.
 
I wonder if the issues are being confused (certainly seems to be from SFBayLaser's post). The two separate questions that are being merged into one are:
1st question: should the girls and boys be allowed to race together and compete against each other
2nd question: should the girls have badges clearly visible so everybody can see who they are


They are definitely separate issues and to resolve the problems need to be treated as such.
To deal with the two issues separately:


1st Question: Should boys and girls compete against each other
Personally I can see little reason why not. Bigger fleets, better competition, etc. However, this question does not require action by the class. If somebody organises a regatta where the boys and girls are to be kept apart (sounds like some extreme religious group !), then people will vote with their feet. Maybe they will get loads more entries, maybe far fewer - but all without any voting or actions by the Class. Sort of self regulating. Personally I would rather attend regattas where there are more people to compete against so would be less likely to attend a sexually segregated event. However, this is more likely to affect the girls as they would probably suffer from smaller fleets to a greater extent so the actual effect of the "you can't play together" would be to discourage the girls.


2nd Question: Should girls wear clear badges so we can all identify them
Well, nobody has really given any justification for this. Of course people know who they are competing against. And as SFBayLaser says, separate fleets rarely get mixed-up. Nobody has said who this is intended for. There were some comments about race committees needing to know but these have been countered (and are weak justifications anyway). Then its the girls who need to know which boats have other girls in (but they say they don't). So it comes back down to SFBayLasers comment "The proposed rule change is something that has been ILCA policy for a number of years". To be honest the more I find out about the Laser Class Associations the less impressed I am and less inclined I am to join. If I was a girl and was forced to buy my "rhombus" (expected retail price $250 - as the Laser Class Association will be taking its cut in return for a red button to show the rhombus is class legal) I would use the clenched fist with middle finger pointing skywards (maybe an appropriate alternative symbol which maybe somebody should propose as a change to the class rules !!).


If I sound cynical then yes, I am becoming increasingly cynical


Ian
 
I also notice that whilst the Class Association explanation identifies it as something relating to the Laser Radial, the proposed rule change applies to ALL Lasers. Is this a deliberate error or just something that has "slipped through". Our rule makers need to be very careful in selecting their wording. "Lose wording" can cause a lot of problems and I would have no confidence in a Class that was not very careful chosing its words.


Ian
 
Why pick on people based on sex??
Let's give all the people who weigh under 200 lbs pink sails!!

I don't believe the class should allow male members to vote on this issue.

The scoring program we use tells us any sail numbers that are missing from a given class.

Women racing for rankings etc. are fully capable of recognizing their competition by sail number, hull color, clothing or other means, the same as the men do.

I can be easily recognized by a big floppy red ponytail sticking out of the back of my hat. And my big mouth.

...Gouv's idea for all the lightweight pikers is a great start; -- all the newbies should be required to have "student driver" on their sails
Miss Dizzy makes a strong point.

It's easy to distinguish between standards and radials.
One knows whose competitors are whom.
If it's an Olympic-level competition, there is a separate start anyway.
The scoring is done by sail number.

I was quite surprised when I saw only two females entries at NC. That should change.
 
How much does it cost the Class to have a vote on things like this. I ask as there seem only two things; taping the mast together (hardly major) and this daft idea. If it costs more than $10 to run a vote, I would suggest the Class are wasting their (or rather the members) money.


Ian
 
RC's do not need any special designation to tell when, for example, a Masters category fleet have all finished. A quick count of the sail numbers they have recorded will tell them this. At big events, the RC routinely has a computer on board, and entry of any given sail number will put it into its class and tell you everything about the person sailing. The scoring program we use tells us any sail numbers that are missing from a given class.

This is getting off topic but... I appreciate that you guys have a great team at Sarasota with a lot of experience running big events there. Still, I don't know of many finish boats that can record finishes, enter them into a computer then transmit that information to the start line boat so they know they can roll into a sequence - while continuing to record finishes for the other fleets. When I've been on finish line boats for big events it was more work than I could have ever imagined just to get the finishes when the boats come rolling in.

When you have 200 boats divided into four fleets and are running an event in wind, waves, perhaps cold temperatures, you don't want boats sitting and waiting until all fleets have finished. As soon as all boats in one fleet are finished you want to roll into a sequence for that fleet.

Do you need designators on the boats (e.g. colored bands on masts at a Master worlds) for the RC? Perhaps there are other ways to do it (like what you guys do in Sarasota), but fleet designators can provide a simple and quick way for the RC to know that there are still boats belonging to a given fleet out on the course.

Women racing for rankings etc. are fully capable of recognizing their competition by sail number, hull color, clothing or other means, the same as the men do.

I can only relate my own experience of sailing in Master's events where I find that, especially early in the regatta, I don't necessarily know all (most) of my competitors and I find the bands very useful, especially when we start to get mixed up with another fleet. When I first started sailing big Master's events I was told it was for the RC but now I think it is also useful for the competitors.

I can be easily recognized by a big floppy red ponytail sticking out of the back of my hat. And my big mouth.

You know, there is a guy I used to race against down in Monterey who had long red hair that he would tie up in a pony tail while racing. He is older now and cut his hair so you two probably wouldn't get confused anymore...

Still, I thought it was a scandalous policy as previously noted, and I'm sure if there were a female member on the World Council this proposal would never have made it to a vote.

Now, with less than 10% of members who usually vote, and class membership probably over 85% male, what are chances that those voting will even THINK about this rule change?

Lainie, my purpose in posting to this thread is not to advocate that anyone vote for or against this particular proposal but, rather, to try to address, where I can, some of the questions and/or issues that seem to be popping up.

If you think this is a bad rule then I would really encourage you to join the class and vote against it. More than anyone else you should understand how hard it is to get any rule to pass and know that it does not take many no votes to defeat a proposal.

As for the rest of the class, I think you should have more optimism in the class membership's ability to consider these things. Fortunately for us, the people who do vote DO take the time to think about these things.

By the way, you are correct, about 85% of the North American membership is male...
 
I wonder if the issues are being confused (certainly seems to be from SFBayLaser's post). The two separate questions that are being merged into one are:
1st question: should the girls and boys be allowed to race together and compete against each other
2nd question: should the girls have badges clearly visible so everybody can see who they are


They are definitely separate issues and to resolve the problems need to be treated as such.
To deal with the two issues separately:


1st Question: Should boys and girls compete against each other
Personally I can see little reason why not. Bigger fleets, better competition, etc. However, this question does not require action by the class. If somebody organises a regatta where the boys and girls are to be kept apart (sounds like some extreme religious group !), then people will vote with their feet. Maybe they will get loads more entries, maybe far fewer - but all without any voting or actions by the Class. Sort of self regulating. Personally I would rather attend regattas where there are more people to compete against so would be less likely to attend a sexually segregated event. However, this is more likely to affect the girls as they would probably suffer from smaller fleets to a greater extent so the actual effect of the "you can't play together" would be to discourage the girls.

Actually, I disagree that this is even a valid question. What was obviously not clear from my post is that in North America, with the exception of two events and for the reasons given, ALL Laser Class events (Standard, Radial, 4.7) are open to ALL competitors. Fleets may be divided for seeding into gold/silver or, if we should be so lucky to get so many masters to turn out, masters events may be divided by age division but fleets are not split by gender.

We're having great success with our Radial events, with now 96 boats signed up for the North Americans next month of which about 1/3 are female (and this with none of the top women sailors yet entered). The competition is good with results very evenly mixed, for example at the MWE this year about half the gold fleet was female with women taking 5 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 10 positions.

2nd Question: Should girls wear clear badges so we can all identify them
Well, nobody has really given any justification for this. Of course people know who they are competing against. And as SFBayLaser says, separate fleets rarely get mixed-up. Nobody has said who this is intended for. There were some comments about race committees needing to know but these have been countered (and are weak justifications anyway). Then its the girls who need to know which boats have other girls in (but they say they don't). So it comes back down to SFBayLasers comment "The proposed rule change is something that has been ILCA policy for a number of years". To be honest the more I find out about the Laser Class Associations the less impressed I am and less inclined I am to join. If I was a girl and was forced to buy my "rhombus" (expected retail price $250 - as the Laser Class Association will be taking its cut in return for a red button to show the rhombus is class legal) I would use the clenched fist with middle finger pointing skywards (maybe an appropriate alternative symbol which maybe somebody should propose as a change to the class rules !!).


If I sound cynical then yes, I am becoming increasingly cynical


Ian

This is off topic but I'm curious... just exactly how much of a "cut" do you think the Laser Class gets for "the red button"?
 
How much does it cost the Class to have a vote on things like this. I ask as there seem only two things; taping the mast together (hardly major) and this daft idea. If it costs more than $10 to run a vote, I would suggest the Class are wasting their (or rather the members) money.


Ian

It costs the time it takes for Zac Hiller to make this web page where people can cast their votes. Zac ran a web company before coming to ILCA, he is pretty good with this stuff and I bet it did not take much of his time to make this page.

And it costs the time it takes to fill a half page in Laser World where there is a mail in ballot if you prefer snail mail.

I'd not be so quick to belittle the other proposal. My initial reaction to taping the mast joint was probably similar to yours. But, apparently, there are people who have a problem with the mast rotating, somehow, so the infamous rivet points in the wrong direction leading to the risk of a broken mast. Not my personal experience but there were definitely WC members in strong support of this one.
 
but fleets are not split by gender.
So why bother with rhombuses (and why was the issue of helping race committees stated as a justification for a permanent fixture to the sail) ?


This is off topic but I'm curious... just exactly how much of a "cut" do you think the Laser Class gets for "the red button"?
I have no idea but a lot of Laser sailors in the US seem quite disappointed with the cost of Class approved sails. I suppose I am becoming more and more cynical about the Laser Class Association. Great boats, but the Class Association seems to have "issues". Its off topic but I feel I should justify some of my previously expressed frustrations. In my own country (of residence) after 5 months I have been unable to establish contact with the Class Association (or rather to get any response from them). True I could download the membership application, send it in with a cheque and they would cash it - but I thought Class Associations were about more than being a "money pit". In many areas of life people seem to think they have to keep tweaking things, even when there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe people should do a bit more "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Take something working fine and tinker with it - and normally you wont improve it.


Sorry if I'm going off topic above but some things really do get frustrating (not this proposed rule change specifically but dealing (or failing to deal with) Class Associations. You try and it can be like knocking your head against a brick wall. However, in truth, not being a member of a Class Association I really have little or no right to express opinions of rules.


Ian
 
So why bother with rhombuses (and why was the issue of helping race committees stated as a justification for a permanent fixture to the sail) ?

Well, remember that I am describing policy in North America, not the rest of the world. And anything I've offered is really to serve as an example of how a designator on a boat can be useful. On the other hand, we seem to have survived this long without a red rhombus in our events here, I'm sure we can continue to move forward if the rule doesn't pass. And... if the rule does pass, I bet, as with country codes, we will look the other way if people don't have them.

How it affects running, say, a Master Worlds is something you should ask Jeff Martin.

I have no idea but a lot of Laser sailors in the US seem quite disappointed with the cost of Class approved sails.

Here in North America I don't like paying $3.80 a gallon for gasoline... but I don't assume that because the price is high that the State of California is raking in the bucks... Just for reference, the class royalty for sails amounts to less than $15/sail at today's exchange rates. IMHO, the real problem with the price of class approved sails is the number of hands in the supply chain... but, like gasoline, if people want to see the price of sails drop they need to stop buying them.

I suppose I am becoming more and more cynical about the Laser Class Association. Great boats, but the Class Association seems to have "issues". Its off topic but I feel I should justify some of my previously expressed frustrations. In my own country (of residence) after 5 months I have been unable to establish contact with the Class Association (or rather to get any response from them). True I could download the membership application, send it in with a cheque and they would cash it - but I thought Class Associations were about more than being a "money pit". In many areas of life people seem to think they have to keep tweaking things, even when there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe people should do a bit more "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Take something working fine and tinker with it - and normally you wont improve it.


Sorry if I'm going off topic above but some things really do get frustrating (not this proposed rule change specifically but dealing (or failing to deal with) Class Associations. You try and it can be like knocking your head against a brick wall. However, in truth, not being a member of a Class Association I really have little or no right to express opinions of rules.


Ian

I'm surprised to hear that the French Laser Association is unresponsive though I have no direct contact with them so have not experience one way or the other. Remember, though, that the French Laser Association is an ILCA District, they are part of the European Region which is then part of ILCA. One thing you can try is to contact the European Region representatives (Jean-Luc Michon and/or Ahmet Ediboglu, contact information is here) and see if they can help you with the French association. The next step after that is the ILCA office itself.

If you really really really like Lasers, then you can always move to North America where we'll be happy to talk to you.
 
Interesting debate. I'm not particularly interested in putting any extra sticky stuff on my sail that has to be taken off later. (should I ever compete at that level). I can almost understand some of the argument for the very large regattas...to help identify fellow competitors...but then again sail numbers should work. It should definately not be needed for scoring...if it is, you are not using any good tools for scoring. Anyway, for the few events where it might be desirable to identify the women vs the men, I see no reason to write this into the class rules...could it not be handled on a per-event basis in a manner similar to the Masters 'tapes' that have been mentioned?
 
This has been an interesting thread. I'm glad to see the tide of opinion is flowing towards "why do we need a sail sticker" which was my entire purpose in weighing in on this subject.

In the big picture, I could see a sexual discrimination lawsuit some day over such a rule, and I'm surprised that the ILCA has not considered this possibility. As I said in my first post, I was incensed when Jeff Martin tried to make me put a sticker on my sail in Chile in 1997. No such designation was used at the Masters Worlds regatta I sailed in Australia in 1999 - I was still on the World Council then . . . but someone says it has been "policy" for years which simply means it's something Jeff liked to be able to do and got the WC to sign off on.

It's a bad idea and encourages sexist behavior on the race course where it never should occur.

To answer Tracy's suggestion that I should join the Class in order to vote, let me say that I think 10 years as a member, 6 of which I spent as a District rep or ILCA World Council member buy me the right to weigh in on a subject I feel strongly about. Paying $40 (or more?) to join when I don't race Lasers at the moment seems rather expensive for the priviledge of voting.

I do, however, still run regattas for Lasers - "serve to lead".. and have many friends in many Laser fleets. I hope some of them read this thread and vote on it for me.

Lainie
 
This is getting off topic but...

I would really encourage you to join the class....


As of 1999 the class policy which was continued through 2002 was to give long serving contributors, especially those who had regularly used personal funds contribute to the class, lifetime memberships.

As of 2002 the following (and some others) were life members of ILCA-NA

Ken Young
Bruce Kirby
Ian Lineberger
Ian Bruce
Fiona Kidd
Lainie Pardey
Fred Schroth
Allan Broadribb
Wil Sadler
Ward Bell
Mary Helen Edgecomb
***There are a few others and I am embarased that I cannot remember their names right now***

After serving as a District Secretary and five years as ILCA President, I believe Tracy Usher is well past due for inclusion in this group.
 

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