Class Politics possible new rig?

R

Ross B

Guest
found this over on SA. It has probably been posted here before, but the pic is perfect

This looks a perfect idea of what the next generation sail could be, and it uses existing mast and boom!

please discuss



index.php
 
judgin g by whre the fellow is sitting and the size of the waves, I would imagine this rig would kick a Laser's butt in light winds

I wonder if it can be depowered in a blow?
 
I brought the pic over manually. Didn't see the original thread. Hope the pic was in the public domain....
 

Attachments

  • Laser_Turbo_29b1.jpg
    Laser_Turbo_29b1.jpg
    37.2 KB · Views: 193
Please count me out - I race laser for its simple one design concept. I have had a raft of high tech, Great fun but a different challenge and fill a different need. If that's what you want I suggest you look at a whole variety of interesting designs that already offer it!

I have said before on this site - the Laser fits a perfect and popular niche that we mess with at our peril.

By all means copy the Rooster example and start a new class - 8.1. I don't welcome the reduction in numbers sailing the 'Original' but you can't ban competition. What I think is unfair on 90+% of Laser 1 owners who race is making a fundamental change to the class! (No I don't include the addition of additional purchases)

I have no problem with the other rigs, radial and 4.7, but neither do I want to sail one or race against one on or off handicap!
 
wow - if thats using the original mast and boom then it must have a fair bit more sail area with that square roach....... would be a handfull in a blow!
 
Nothing wrong with full battens, they are usually faster. Most cat's have em, and if you want square head mains, or high roach, you gotta have em


Merrily, here's the link: http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=59253

From what I saw racing all summer with bytes who have almost the same sail it is hardly faster and really only pays off in light winds.

Also my head was next to full battens on the whole ride up to cork so I have some hate for them. They take up way to much space and are a hassle when putting them in or out.

Its not worth it. I am up for a new sail but not if it changes the boat that much we might even have to get all new systems to move them in heavy winds. IF ITS NOT BROKE DON'T FIX IT! Lasers work for a reason... changing everything on it is plain stupid. Also keep in mind you would have to put on weight to be completive and you would also spend more money on the sail forcing them up higher then they already are.

My 2 cents.
 
well if we were to go to a better designed sail, with a longer life, this is a possability
 
Full length battens on unstayed rig that bends like a laser? That's a seriously expensive piece of sail technology. The battens would really only be stiff sailcloth. Might work as long as you don't pull on the vang or cunningham.
 
I have one question...WHY? I agree, make a better sail, it's a POS, but don't do this. If you want a modern rig that is at the leading fore-front of technology sail a Int. Canoe, Moth, 14. If you went to that sail plan, it would be around 700 dollars for a really good sail, and the thing would just make everyones lives sooo complicated. Plus, this sail is significantly bigger than the existing sail area. So, you would probably have to make a new rig to accommodate a sail plan that is equal to the current sail area limit. That's gonna run you another grand. So, all in all, complete waste of money...

TC
 
i agree, this is an overkill solution that will only benefit a few individuals. i think we have all come to an agreement that the current Laser sail needs to be improved with a heavier cloth and lower pricing. Ross's example is some steroid fueled design that would sit better on a foil or skiff. shouldn't we be trying to give the Class a focused argument on fixing the current sail, knowing that there is a chance that it could happen?
 
I just threw this out there as a possability, this is the only other attempt at a re-design I have ever seen. And I beleive that the sail uses the current rig.

The person probably only made a sail or tow, but at least someone is doing more than sitting behind their computer
 
next to this..... what happened to the simple one design? i like the 3 rigs that we have already theres no need for this one
 
Geez! What is the size of that sail? I'm not opposed to change in the Laser class, but that's pretty radical. There are people who like to tinker with their boats, and TimClark pointed out several good classses for doing that. However there is no reason to make the Laser class one of those classes.
 
The thought is that as we all know, most of us are unhappy with the current full rig sail, and the rest of them. And we would just do like the Byte and MegaByte, and redesign and replace the sail.
 
Just wondering:

1. what's the sail area?
2. ok it looks cool reaching, but what about going upwind?
3. same spars?
4. looks like a expensive solution, we are paying 700 euros here in europe for a crappy sail, that would be way too expensive.
5. Somehow, it doesn't look like a laser.

Still, kudos to them for trying to figure out a solution or improvement. Indeed, a kind of trails asking for design solutions to improve the boat may be a good idea, it has been done in other classes before.
 
The thought is that as we all know, most of us are unhappy with the current full rig sail, and the rest of them. And we would just do like the Byte and MegaByte, and redesign and replace the sail.

Why not buy a Megabyte - they are cheap second hand (you will probably have to travel a bit as there aren't that many - too good for the likes of me I guess), have the sail you desire & already have carbon masts!

PS I may be able to help you dispose of some of your unwanted Laser rubbish - send me a pm and I'll make an offer!
 
This is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in ages.

It's like putting a soft dacron sail on a foiling moth. I would ask why anyone would bother, but I don't think I want to hear the answer.
 
Why not buy a Megabyte - they are cheap second hand (you will probably have to travel a bit as there aren't that many - too good for the likes of me I guess), have the sail you desire & already have carbon masts!

PS I may be able to help you dispose of some of your unwanted Laser rubbish - send me a pm and I'll make an offer!

lets not go there, this is about advancing our own class
 
...this is about advancing our own class

Ross,

Why would this be an advance?

You've got a naturally skeptical crowd here, you're going to have to do some selling. Why is what you're showing better (more "advanced") than what we've got now?

Some natural questions that come to mind:

1. How long is the competitive life of that thing? We're clearly unhappy with how long the current sail lasts, does this one keep it's competitive life longer? How much longer?

2. That's a big increase in sail area, right? How big is it really?

3. How does it perform in light air? I assume that's one of the selling points.

4. How about heavy air? At 160lbs I can still handle my laser comfortably in 25kts. Could I sail that thing in the same conditions? Or would I be pushed down into the radial class? How about a 180lbs guy? 200lbs?

5. Some modern sails/rigs are said to "depower automatically" by twisting off in the puffs. This rig continues to use the same upper mast section. Does it have that self-depowering aspect? Or is more active trimming required?

6. And speaking of the upper mast section -- another pain-point of the class is that they bend/break way to often. Does this excaberate the problem? If you adopt this sail, do you also really now NEED to adopt a carbon-fiber upper section?

7. Does it sail well by-the-lee? Or do the downwind sailing angles now change?
 
It's real, there are more pics out there.

Listen, I don't want to get crazy, I just don't care enough and I'm tired of all the bull and close mindedness and ignorance that I often seen here.

I just see this as an exciting new development, and possibility that should be explored. The same applied for the new rigging, which everyone was apposed to, and now loves. Same goes for our current blades, glad we moved on from wood, the new radial sail, and carbon tiller and extension, the new cloths that is now used in the fulls, and all the other developments. This is also similar in a way to the Rooster 8.1, which I think is great, it cheaply gets people sailing, the sail is a great design, and looks to last and is better built than what we currently have.

I'm not saying it will be class legal tomorrow, but it's something that should be thought about and explored, which I beleive is on the class's agenda.

I'm not going to defend this sail, it's not mine to defend as I did not create it, and I know only what you guys know about this sail, and is obvious from the pictures. It was just something exciting that's been floating around for awhile that I thought everyone might find interesting, guess not.

Also guys don't know stuff you've tried and experienced it yourself, because before you've experienced something, your opinion is just that, and opinion, and it doesn't hold much bearing.

Merrily, could you do me a favor and delete this thread? It obviously has no place here. Thanks
 
Ross, I think you are missing the point. Just because someone is disagrees with you doesn't make them close minded and ignorant.

Most Laser sailors are happy to see well considered, well managed, evolutionary change that doesn't challenge the ethos of the class. The new rigging proves this - a two thirds majority of association members voted for it didn't they?

Lasers have never been about technology. Our success as a class is based on big fleet, one design racing in a simple boat. Revolutionary change would kill the class.
 
I full and well understand this. I am just really sick and tired of all the bloody negativity on this forum, if it's new and challenges any rule, its immediately shot down. Free thinkers are heavily frowned upon here. Which is why I will no longer be posting here as frequently.
 
Most Laser sailors are happy to see well considered, well managed, evolutionary change that doesn't challenge the ethos of the class.

This is the key. The new rigging didn't turn the class up on its head. This new sail would.
 
Ross, I don't see any reason to remove the thread, but it is more properly placed in Laser Class and Politics.

Free thinkers have always been shot down. Poor Galileo! At least no one is showing you any instruments of torture until you confess that the earth is the center of the universe!

The class actively discourages change. Try not to let it get you down, and don't be surprised when suggested changes are heavily questioned. I'm not for such a radical change, but I think it's fun to look at and might make an interesting different class using a Laser hull.
 
As Merrily says "The Class actively discourages change". To my mind this is a good idea as it creates stability in something that is a proven success. Radical change "to see what happens" would be a massive risk - if it failed it might take down a massively successful class and if it worked it might satisfy a few who might be better of sailing in a development class.

The thing about "free thinking" is that it is dead easy to come up with an off-the-wall idea. What is harder is to come up with a good off-the-wall idea. And when you do you need to convince people it is a good idea with solid reasons. Posting a pic and then swearing at people who disagree is not convincing.

As others have said, the class does accept change. But it is slow and considered and history has shown that this approach works.

Ian
 
If it's real, this look a lot like a windsurfing rig. I'm a (very) newbie Laser sailor but have been windsurfing for awhile. One of the primary control lines on the windsurfing sail is the downhaul which controls mast bend. For this type of sail, more downhaul puts wrinkles on your leach and can really depower the sail in higher winds (lets it twist off). Even without getting into adjustable outhauls, modern windsurfing sails are very "rangy" using only the downhaul so this one might work OK in higher winds. It seems like the issue would be if the Laser spars could handle the pre-bend that's probably already cut into this sail as well as additional downhaul/cunningham you would use to adjust sail shape.

Just a couple of newbie musings...
 
Ross, it's not negative to say that the boat and rig we currently have are okay - that's positive.

It's dead easy to think of things we can chuck on a Laser. Hey, why not a fondue set for those light wind races and the '70s fashionistas? Why not unrestricted kinetics? Why not an LCD display in each sail, giving sailing tips or the latest movies? Why not replace inflatable buoys with sea turtles, genetically modified to carry cameras for the TV. Wings, assy, trap, wing mast, steam-powered adjustable batten tensioners, a foil with controls so the boat could jump, and a raking tilting rig are obvious additions. Penalties could be "awarded" by a radio-controlled killer whale that eats those who try to cross too close on port.

Being critical of what we have, which is part of coming up with "new" ideas, is very negative; it's all about what's "wrong" with the boat.

It's easy to think up ideas. I tend to think that these days, when so many people have the (incorrect) idea that speed increases participation, the truly novel thing is to look at the real-world figures and see that the whole "gee whizz" approach to sailing is a failure and that simplicity, accessibility and purity are what really counts.
 
the truly novel thing is to look at the real-world figures and see that the whole "gee whizz" approach to sailing is a failure and that simplicity, accessibility and purity are what really counts.


What he said, and people, let's get some good parties going, too!
 
Let's bring this back to the initial complaints about the sail. From my recollection, it wasn't so much about the shape or performance of the sail. It was more about the cost of a sail coming from a single builder-approved supplier and the quality.
 
Let's bring this back to the initial complaints about the sail. From my recollection, it wasn't so much about the shape or performance of the sail. It was more about the cost of a sail coming from a single builder-approved supplier and the quality.


You are thinking of the Victoria's secret thread. Actually, the initial topic of this thread is a novel sail rig that Ross B found at SA, so HECS comments are appropriate, in my opinion. Mine were off topic however. :eek:
 

Back
Top