possible new rig?

#21
The thought is that as we all know, most of us are unhappy with the current full rig sail, and the rest of them. And we would just do like the Byte and MegaByte, and redesign and replace the sail.
Why not buy a Megabyte - they are cheap second hand (you will probably have to travel a bit as there aren't that many - too good for the likes of me I guess), have the sail you desire & already have carbon masts!

PS I may be able to help you dispose of some of your unwanted Laser rubbish - send me a pm and I'll make an offer!
 
#22
This is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in ages.

It's like putting a soft dacron sail on a foiling moth. I would ask why anyone would bother, but I don't think I want to hear the answer.
 
R

Ross B

Guest
#23
Why not buy a Megabyte - they are cheap second hand (you will probably have to travel a bit as there aren't that many - too good for the likes of me I guess), have the sail you desire & already have carbon masts!

PS I may be able to help you dispose of some of your unwanted Laser rubbish - send me a pm and I'll make an offer!
lets not go there, this is about advancing our own class
 
#24
...this is about advancing our own class
Ross,

Why would this be an advance?

You've got a naturally skeptical crowd here, you're going to have to do some selling. Why is what you're showing better (more "advanced") than what we've got now?

Some natural questions that come to mind:

1. How long is the competitive life of that thing? We're clearly unhappy with how long the current sail lasts, does this one keep it's competitive life longer? How much longer?

2. That's a big increase in sail area, right? How big is it really?

3. How does it perform in light air? I assume that's one of the selling points.

4. How about heavy air? At 160lbs I can still handle my laser comfortably in 25kts. Could I sail that thing in the same conditions? Or would I be pushed down into the radial class? How about a 180lbs guy? 200lbs?

5. Some modern sails/rigs are said to "depower automatically" by twisting off in the puffs. This rig continues to use the same upper mast section. Does it have that self-depowering aspect? Or is more active trimming required?

6. And speaking of the upper mast section -- another pain-point of the class is that they bend/break way to often. Does this excaberate the problem? If you adopt this sail, do you also really now NEED to adopt a carbon-fiber upper section?

7. Does it sail well by-the-lee? Or do the downwind sailing angles now change?
 
R

Ross B

Guest
#26
It's real, there are more pics out there.

Listen, I don't want to get crazy, I just don't care enough and I'm tired of all the bull and close mindedness and ignorance that I often seen here.

I just see this as an exciting new development, and possibility that should be explored. The same applied for the new rigging, which everyone was apposed to, and now loves. Same goes for our current blades, glad we moved on from wood, the new radial sail, and carbon tiller and extension, the new cloths that is now used in the fulls, and all the other developments. This is also similar in a way to the Rooster 8.1, which I think is great, it cheaply gets people sailing, the sail is a great design, and looks to last and is better built than what we currently have.

I'm not saying it will be class legal tomorrow, but it's something that should be thought about and explored, which I beleive is on the class's agenda.

I'm not going to defend this sail, it's not mine to defend as I did not create it, and I know only what you guys know about this sail, and is obvious from the pictures. It was just something exciting that's been floating around for awhile that I thought everyone might find interesting, guess not.

Also guys don't know stuff you've tried and experienced it yourself, because before you've experienced something, your opinion is just that, and opinion, and it doesn't hold much bearing.

Merrily, could you do me a favor and delete this thread? It obviously has no place here. Thanks
 
#27
Ross, I think you are missing the point. Just because someone is disagrees with you doesn't make them close minded and ignorant.

Most Laser sailors are happy to see well considered, well managed, evolutionary change that doesn't challenge the ethos of the class. The new rigging proves this - a two thirds majority of association members voted for it didn't they?

Lasers have never been about technology. Our success as a class is based on big fleet, one design racing in a simple boat. Revolutionary change would kill the class.
 
R

Ross B

Guest
#28
I full and well understand this. I am just really sick and tired of all the bloody negativity on this forum, if it's new and challenges any rule, its immediately shot down. Free thinkers are heavily frowned upon here. Which is why I will no longer be posting here as frequently.
 

Merrily

Administrator
#30
Ross, I don't see any reason to remove the thread, but it is more properly placed in Laser Class and Politics.

Free thinkers have always been shot down. Poor Galileo! At least no one is showing you any instruments of torture until you confess that the earth is the center of the universe!

The class actively discourages change. Try not to let it get you down, and don't be surprised when suggested changes are heavily questioned. I'm not for such a radical change, but I think it's fun to look at and might make an interesting different class using a Laser hull.
 
#31
As Merrily says "The Class actively discourages change". To my mind this is a good idea as it creates stability in something that is a proven success. Radical change "to see what happens" would be a massive risk - if it failed it might take down a massively successful class and if it worked it might satisfy a few who might be better of sailing in a development class.

The thing about "free thinking" is that it is dead easy to come up with an off-the-wall idea. What is harder is to come up with a good off-the-wall idea. And when you do you need to convince people it is a good idea with solid reasons. Posting a pic and then swearing at people who disagree is not convincing.

As others have said, the class does accept change. But it is slow and considered and history has shown that this approach works.

Ian
 

BGD

New Member
#32
If it's real, this look a lot like a windsurfing rig. I'm a (very) newbie Laser sailor but have been windsurfing for awhile. One of the primary control lines on the windsurfing sail is the downhaul which controls mast bend. For this type of sail, more downhaul puts wrinkles on your leach and can really depower the sail in higher winds (lets it twist off). Even without getting into adjustable outhauls, modern windsurfing sails are very "rangy" using only the downhaul so this one might work OK in higher winds. It seems like the issue would be if the Laser spars could handle the pre-bend that's probably already cut into this sail as well as additional downhaul/cunningham you would use to adjust sail shape.

Just a couple of newbie musings...
 
#33
Ross, it's not negative to say that the boat and rig we currently have are okay - that's positive.

It's dead easy to think of things we can chuck on a Laser. Hey, why not a fondue set for those light wind races and the '70s fashionistas? Why not unrestricted kinetics? Why not an LCD display in each sail, giving sailing tips or the latest movies? Why not replace inflatable buoys with sea turtles, genetically modified to carry cameras for the TV. Wings, assy, trap, wing mast, steam-powered adjustable batten tensioners, a foil with controls so the boat could jump, and a raking tilting rig are obvious additions. Penalties could be "awarded" by a radio-controlled killer whale that eats those who try to cross too close on port.

Being critical of what we have, which is part of coming up with "new" ideas, is very negative; it's all about what's "wrong" with the boat.

It's easy to think up ideas. I tend to think that these days, when so many people have the (incorrect) idea that speed increases participation, the truly novel thing is to look at the real-world figures and see that the whole "gee whizz" approach to sailing is a failure and that simplicity, accessibility and purity are what really counts.
 

Merrily

Administrator
#34
the truly novel thing is to look at the real-world figures and see that the whole "gee whizz" approach to sailing is a failure and that simplicity, accessibility and purity are what really counts.

What he said, and people, let's get some good parties going, too!
 

torrid

Just sailing
#35
Let's bring this back to the initial complaints about the sail. From my recollection, it wasn't so much about the shape or performance of the sail. It was more about the cost of a sail coming from a single builder-approved supplier and the quality.
 

Merrily

Administrator
#36
Let's bring this back to the initial complaints about the sail. From my recollection, it wasn't so much about the shape or performance of the sail. It was more about the cost of a sail coming from a single builder-approved supplier and the quality.

You are thinking of the Victoria's secret thread. Actually, the initial topic of this thread is a novel sail rig that Ross B found at SA, so HECS comments are appropriate, in my opinion. Mine were off topic however. :eek:
 
#37
Ross, it's not negative to say that the boat and rig we currently have are okay - that's positive.

It's dead easy to think of things we can chuck on a Laser. Hey, why not a fondue set for those light wind races and the '70s fashionistas?Great Idea!! Chocolate fondue with strawberries and pineapples for dipping?
Why not unrestricted kinetics? I agreee !! Rock ON!!
Why not an LCD display in each sail, giving sailing tips or the latest movies? Hell Yes!! How about porn flicks for those so inclined??
Why not replace inflatable buoys with sea turtles, genetically modified to carry cameras for the TV. Now you're talkin. How about mermaids??
Wings, assy, trap, wing mast, steam-powered adjustable batten tensioners, a foil with controls so the boat could jump, and a raking tilting rig are obvious additions. Don't forget a satellite dish and a wet bar complete with waitresses!!
Penalties could be "awarded" by a radio-controlled killer whale that eats those who try to cross too close on port. No need for a death penalty. That is barbarian!! A simple automatic whirlpool that makes boats do 720s would suffice.

Being critical of what we have, which is part of coming up with "new" ideas, is very negative; it's all about what's "wrong" with the boat. Au Contraire. I know a fellow with old ideas who has two world championships and wins while sailing with an old wooden Laser carved out of a single log.

It's easy to think up ideas. I tend to think that these days, when so many people have the (incorrect) idea that speed increases participation, the truly novel thing is to look at the real-world figures and see that the whole "gee whizz" approach to sailing is a failure and that simplicity, accessibility and purity are what really counts.
And to that end I suggest we give 13 virgins to whomever wins the next regatta!!

The single most important thing about all of the above is the new parts and services MUST be ciontrolled by the laser builders and sold at inflated prices to all of us who choose to race.
In an effort to please those Laser builders, the class association will most cetainly make the mermaids wear a rhombus.

And of course the mermaids will add to the "official competitors" numbers for the Olympics so fewer countries will be allowed to qualify for the next Olympics.

Summary: If you like that new laser sail and want to race it sometime, just convince the Builders they can make a dollar or two by selling it and the class will adopt it as the "athlete's" rig and allow it by a 2/3 vote of the membership the very next day.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#38
You are thinking of the Victoria's secret thread. Actually, the initial topic of this thread is a novel sail rig that Ross B found at SA, so HECS comments are appropriate, in my opinion. Mine were off topic however. :eek:
I wasn't referring to this specific thread, but just in general. Ross was upset that we complain about the current sail but are close-minded when somebody suggests a change. I was pointing out that the desire for the class is a better value/quality for the current sail plan, not a radically different rig. At least that's the impression I detect.
 
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