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george reiter

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I put a new racing sale on my old style(brass metal fittings for rudder)Sunfish. I am having a great deal of difficulty getting started in winds that would have been no problem with the old regular sail. I am spending a lot of time sailing backwards. The problem seems to be that before I can get going fast enough for the rudder to hold the course against the force of the sail, the bow turns into the wind. Is there any way of trimming the boat, or in fact anything I can do to correct this short of replacing the sail? Once under way its fine, (if I can tack at high enough speed).
 
Sheet out the sail a little so it doesn't have as much power from the back end of the sail.

You can also move the gooseneck back on the lower boom, pushing the front corner of the sail forward.

After raising the sail and adjusting the downhaul, let out about 6 to 12 inches on the halyard lowering the upper boom and allowing the wind to reshape the sail.

All common adjustments.

*****************

A new, crisp Dacron (OEM style) sail would be different from both the race sail and the old well used one....
 
fhhuber said:
After raising the sail and adjusting the downhaul, let out about 6 to 12 inches on the halyard lowering the upper boom and allowing the wind to reshape the sail.

All common adjustments....
Click to expand...

I don't think the race sail can make that much difference. I'd follow the above advice , except as a recreational sailor I would not bother with a vang or down haul. Also, I hav sailed Sunfish a long long time and have never seen anyone drop the halyard 6 to 12 inches. That would make the sail vastly less controllable You may be thinking of the Jens rig but it's more complicated than dropping the halyard and not suited to recreational sailing.
 
Well... you need to rig something to tie the gooseneck to the deck, so if the boat flips the mast and sail don't go to the bottom of the lake.
 
Why is it that "the recreational sailor" shouldn't bother with an outhaul or a cunningham?
As a sailor, I want my boat to be as efficient as possible at all times.
Having proper sail controls makes the boat work better, and it's adjustable for a variety of conditions.
If your using a race type sail, do yourself a huge favor and read up on sunfish sail trim. Add some sail controls, and learn how to trim a sail.

Your root problem of feeling blown sideways and needing lots of speed to tack are caused by the center of effort of the sail being too far behind the keel.
Everything matters, if you change the sail area, something else will change.
 
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george reiter said:
I put a new racing sale on my old style (brass metal fittings for rudder) Sunfish. I am having a great deal of difficulty getting started in winds that would have been no problem with the old regular sail. I am spending a lot of time sailing backwards. The problem seems to be that before I can get going fast enough for the rudder to hold the course against the force of the sail, the bow turns into the wind. Is there any way of trimming the boat, or in fact anything I can do to correct this short of replacing the sail? Once under way its fine, (if I can tack at high enough speed).
Click to expand...
Your "old regular sail" may have been "blown-out", making the sail somewhat more efficient "off" the wind, but not at all efficient when sailing "close" to the wind. Find a picture of a Sunfish with the boom rising at the rear (a raised "clew"), and set your halyard and gooseneck the same way. (To work right, both have to be "co-ordinated").

You're "going into irons", a common problem that can be found at this forum's "search" feature. If you find yourself "going into irons" (and sailing backwards), throw your tiller over, and pull or push the boom. It won't be long before the sail fills (one way or the other), and you'll be on your way again. In difficult wave forms, or strong winds, it will help to raise the daggerboard for a moment or two: but you still need to pick up speed before sailing on your intended course again.

JohnCT's reply appeared as I typed-away. (Looking whether to use coördinate or co-ordinate—I'm editing presently).

I agree with everything he's written.
 
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fhhuber said:
Well... you need to rig something to tie the gooseneck to the deck, so if the boat flips the mast and sail don't go to the bottom of the lake.
Click to expand...
If you rig your boat as it comes from the factory that won't be a problem. The halyard is cleated to the deck so the rig cannot fall out. How the heck are you rigging your boat so you have to tie the gooseneck to the boat to keep your rig from falling out?
 
With a halyard cleat on the mast.

The tail of the halyard is then run down through a fairlead to the cleat on the deck.
You can then use the remaining sheet to tie a vang that will help hold sail shape when reaching.
 
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george reiter said:
I put a new racing sale on my old style(brass metal fittings for rudder)Sunfish. I am having a great deal of difficulty getting started in winds that would have been no problem with the old regular sail. I am spending a lot of time sailing backwards. The problem seems to be that before I can get going fast enough for the rudder to hold the course against the force of the sail, the bow turns into the wind. Is there any way of trimming the boat, or in fact anything I can do to correct this short of replacing the sail? Once under way its fine, (if I can tack at high enough speed).
Click to expand...

George, easy way to de-power the huge/full racing sail is to simply run the halyard down the port side of the sail. With this arrangement the leading edge of the sail is flattened and it will feel like you have it when on port tack. This can be done on the water easily. Best way is to junk the old brass rudder system and convert to new pop up system. It can be expensive unless you can find a cheap used new rudder system. Installation of an inspection port on the aft deck is req'd. The old rudder blade was too small and the newer rudders are larger, helping to keep the boat on course. If you don't want to convert to the new system due to $, you can buy a larger wooden rudder and install in place of your old rounded rudder--this should help.
 
JohnCT said:
Why is it that "the recreational sailor" shouldn't bother with an outhaul or a cunningham?
As a sailor, I want my boat to be as efficient as possible at all times.
Having proper sail controls makes the boat work better, and it's adjustable for a variety of conditions.
If your using a race type sail, do yourself a huge favor and read up on sunfish sail trim. Add some sail controls, and learn how to trim a sail.

Your root problem of feeling blown sideways and needing lots of speed to tack are caused by the center of effort of the sail being too far behind the keel.
Everything matters, if you change the sail area, something else will change.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with the last paragraph.
But it's my opinion that outhaul and Cunningham cleats are mostly useful to people who race their Sunfishes and want to adjust sail shape while on the water. For beginners the additional rigging is just a distraction from learning how to sail the boat. Moreover, one CAN adjust the outhaul and downhaul PRIOR TO setting sail.
 
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Wavedancer said:
For beginners the additional rigging is just a distraction from learning how to sail the boat.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. If you just want to sail around, there is no need to monkey with extra adjustments. If you want to, fine, but the boat will be totally enjoyable even if it totally stock!
 
Ok, you are using 2 different terms.

"Recreational and Beginner" are 2 vastly different terms.

And "monkeying" with additional controls to adjust sail shape is called "learning to sail".
Beginners become advanced by learning how the boat works and how to adjust the sail controls for various points of sail.

Will the boat sail well stock, yes.

He is no longer sailing a "stock" boat.

The OP question was how to make the new race style sail perform better.
The sail is designed for racing, meaning using the additional controls "usually" used by people that race Sunfish. His sail will perform better with the addition of the outhaul and cunningham and the knowledge to use them. He will also benefit from the knowledge "racers" have learned about halyard and goose neck location for various wind conditions with the larger sail.
Without the additional sail controls, the race style sail will become overpowered in stronger winds with no way to de-power the sail.

Instead of telling people what they don't need, educate them, give them options and let them decide what they want or need.
 
Sounds like he is using the old style centerboard from the description of the older rudder. Should upgrade to the new centerboard, which will prevent him from side slipping after tacking. When you tacked with the old board and regular sail you would side slip a while till you built speed back up. This would be even more so with the larger racing sail and old centerboard. The first thing you notice when you use the new board, is you tack and you no longer side slip and the boat is driving forwards.

You also need to have the halyard position, head location, gooseneck, and outhaul set up correctly.
Great reference Sunfish.
 
odegaard said:
George, easy way to de-power the huge/full racing sail is to simply run the halyard down the port side of the sail. With this arrangement the leading edge of the sail is flattened and it will feel like you have it when on port tack. This can be done on the water easily. Best way is to junk the old brass rudder system and convert to new pop up system. It can be expensive unless you can find a cheap used new rudder system. Installation of an inspection port on the aft deck is req'd. The old rudder blade was too small and the newer rudders are larger, helping to keep the boat on course. If you don't want to convert to the new system due to $, you can buy a larger wooden rudder and install in place of your old rounded rudder--this should help.
Click to expand...
OK...You lower the sail, adjust the halyard over the upper spar, and then raise the sail again?
The "raise" part doesn't sound "easy". :confused:
 
The race sail changes what you need in order to be able to properly operate the boat.

An old "soft" OEM type sail just can't be manipulated as precisely and so there's no real need to have the added adjustments. A new, crisp OEM style can be adjusted somewhat better and could benefit from some of the racing rigging, but would operate fine without the race rigging.

The racing style new sail just about NEEDS the added racing adjustments. Its just not the same sail.

You can buy a good aftermarket OEM style sail (missing the Sunfish symbol) for under $200 shipped to your door and keep the boat running in simple fun sailing mode. (maybe for another 40 years, since there are 40 yr old OEM sails still in service)

Buying the racing sail says you intended to advance in skills.
 
Yes. For the past 20 years or so Sunfish come with a longer foil shaped board. Most of the factory and all of the aftermarket versions of that board are a white composite. The factory makes wood versions of that big board now and then.
 
During an average morning sail yesterday, the wind suddenly increased to 20-30 MPH. :confused: Turning for home, I promptly buried the bow. :eek: Turning back into the wind, I released the mainsheet and thought about dropping the sail. I then realized I was going backwards at a pretty good clip. With ¼-mile to safety, I turned around and steered for home—backwards! :oops:

It turned out to be a piece of cake. Even the landing worked out. I slowed in tall lake weeds near shore and hopped out—none the worse for the experience. :)
 
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