Outside Eyes!

Mawill

New Member
Hello,

I have been struggling with this issue for a bit - and not sure where to put it - so - I'll add it here. If it needs to be moved, so be it, I don't mind. But I thought I would put this out there for people - maybe it belongs under politics.

I have a friend who was interested in Lasers and was going to get involved. He was asking about the 'community' and the 'association' and to what extent I could, I tried to encourage him. I pointed him to the class site, invited him to a few of our weeknight races, and pointed him here.

He came back to me the other day and said he did not think that the Laser was for him. When I asked why, he said that he had read the Forum and that a large portion of the forums, or at least the ones that get the most posts are the ones where people are 'discussing' or as he put it 'bashing' various issues with the class or each other.

Whether it be that the sails are too expensive, the class is too slow to respond/change, the association is unhelpful, he said he'd was amazed at the level of what he percieved to be complaints - rather than healthy discussion. He also pointed out that a lot of the threads from people who were looking for information about starting up had very few responses - leading him to think that Laser sailors don't really want to help out.

I must say, I was a bit stunned. That is until I looked at this forum through his eyes. Topics start out as discussions and are quickly highjacked into rants - which can sometimes become personal. I am NOT pointing fingers, as I am guilty as charged.

But it did open my eyes to a very simple fact. People look to this site as a place to find out about the Laser and to some extent the people that sail them. To outside eyes, we appear divided, grumpy, cheap, sometimes mean - I don't think that this is what we are, but as they say Perception is everything - or someone must have said that!

Just a thought - please be gentle and not all at once!

Thanks,

Matt
 
Look at it this way, Matt:

The best surfers, sailors, racecar drivers, chefs... the best of every profession, are usually pretty upset when they're not doing what they love the most.

History is scattered with wife beaters, drunks, drug addicts, all manner of criminal bad mouthers, funpokers, goodtime girls, grifters, cardsharks, bums, shysters, shirkers, malcontents... that become artists when they're doing their thing.

That's life.

We're human dammit! Let us be, don't make us be good matt, pleeeese!



Yesterday I went sailing.

Today I'm off to rob a bank.

Tomorrow, I sail again.
 
LOL -

That is good - very good.

I don't have any solutions - nor do I hope to make people be good - that is a far too matronly role for me.

I was really very shocked when he said that - I have never looked at it that way - but sometimes, I think people use the anonimity of the Internet as protection from civility.

So rob a bank, come back, make a huge donation to the Laser Class to subsidize all sailors everywhere.

Yesterday I sat in a cube
Today I sat in a cube
Tomorow, I suppose I shall sit in a cube
Day after that, I will go sailing!
 
I don't have any solutions - nor do I hope to make people be good - that is a far too matronly role for me.

I was really very shocked when he said that - I have never looked at it that way - but sometimes, I think people use the anonimity of the Internet as protection from civility.

Thanks for bringing this up. Often this forum is informative, and occasionally riotously funny. But these inside eyes see this forum as needlessly contentious. Especially when the same topics are hashed and rehashed. This matron tries, and the word civility is what she uses. I begin to object when I see posts that say things that you wouldn't say in front of a 12 year old girl. Think of that, because they are part of our Laser community. There is already a Sailing Anarchy for those who want no holds barred rant.

Let's rededicate ourselves to creating an informative friendly forum. The recent upgrades to the Wiki could go a long way to helping newbies, too, and it also could help the long timers who do get weary of giving the same information again and again. Please pick a topic and start writing! I've done a little and will get to it again later this summer.
 
Now, here is the perfect example, Matt. Take Merrily. Eloquent, educated, robustly opinionated even, but in the nicest way. Best of all, she only wants to keep the children safe - in their 4.7's.

BUT

once on the water, Merrily becomes a sailing she-devil!

:eek:

Don't be fooled Matt, she will push you into the committee boat, for fun!
 
you cant judge a class as a whole, especially a worldwide class as this, by its forum, thats just plain ridiculous...

you have to sail with the people a couple of times, in person, they are more than willing to help, some more than others, but thats life

this is an Olympic class, there are lots of rock stars, every club has em, some are more willing than others, and there are plenty of douches, but there are those handful which are great people that everyone loves and make the difference

it all depends on where you look

its the relationships you build along the way that matter, IN REAL LIFE
 
you cant judge a class as a whole, especially a worldwide class as this, by its forum, thats just plain ridiculous...

you have to sail with the people a couple of times, in person, they are more than willing to help, some more than others, but thats life

this is an Olympic class, there are lots of rock stars, every club has em, some are more willing than others, and there are plenty of douches, but there are those handful which are great people that everyone loves and make the difference

it all depends on where you look

its the relationships you build along the way that matter, IN REAL LIFE

This is something I 100% agree w/you on, (I think it may be a first!). You develop friendships and meet great people at the events and actually sailing NOT on the internet. Sailors are very opinionated in general and quite often opinions expressed over the internet don't come across all warm and fuzzy. Is this guy looking for a girlfriend on the internet too? If so, I'm sure he will be disappointed there as well.
 
you cant judge a class as a whole, especially a worldwide class as this, by its forum, thats just plain ridiculous...

you have to sail with the people a couple of times, in person, they are more than willing to help, some more than others, but thats life

this is an Olympic class, there are lots of rock stars, every club has em, some are more willing than others, and there are plenty of douches, but there are those handful which are great people that everyone loves and make the difference

it all depends on where you look

its the relationships you build along the way that matter, IN REAL LIFE


If I hadn't have put you on my ignore list I would be able to see this post and agree.
 
lol

I don't think Sail4SC has me on his ignore, I saw him looking at one of my threads

I sail against him alot too, seems like a nice though guy
 
I don't think I said let's not have opinions – I have my own - Actually, I am the worlds foremost expert on my own opinions ;-)

I DO think I said 3 things:

1) Try to express ourselves without getting personal or complaining. – “'bashing' various issues with the class or each other.”
2) Try to stay on topic of the thread. “Topics start out as discussions and are quickly high jacked into rants”
3) Try to help out the people that post asking for help - especially ones that seem to be new - we can all see the post count. “lot of the threads from people who were looking for information about starting up had very few responses”

For example - let's look at the gentleman that asked about a Blade Bag. He had a perfectly normal question - he did not want to spend a lot of money on a blade bag and needed advice! Maybe he has a 25 Year old Laser at the cottage and wants something to carry the gear to the lake without making trips back and forth, maybe he needs something to help his kid out, whatever his reason… He got about 3 good answers and then it went downhill. Words like cheap bastard, to which people agree to, and then we go into lessons on financial planning, economics, the relative rewards of McD's vs Sailing etc. This was the guy’s first post ever and he was looking for help - will he be coming back? Will he assume if he asks some guy at a regatta how to rig the Boom Vang he’ll get a good answer or some snide remark?

So yes, you are correct, people will help ONCE YOU HAVE A BOAT; people will show you how to rig properly if they see that you are doing it wrong – BUT YOU NEED A BOAT TO RIG. If you don't and are looking to get involved in something – something that costs 000’s of Dollars/Euros/Yen/Pounds - how do you decide? You go to the website and have a look - at least that is the way it usually works for me. Maybe you read some posts to see what is up - to see if people will help you get along, ask some questions. Or if you are a parent looking into it as a possible class for your kid – what is that called – 'Helicopter Parents'. I was saying that if I were to view this forum through those eyes, I’d think twice.

To assume that people look at discussion forums and NOT draw conclusions from them seems to me ridiculous and fanciful. My post was NOT about using this forum as a way of enticing people into the class or of stifling our opinions – rather it was an attempt to ensure we do our best NOT to drive people off.

Matt
 
hey, I eventually provided the man with an answer, and he was asking for something kind of hard, I am currently unaware of a mainstream shop that sells a bag for under 100

you can go to any run of the mill sailing canvas shop, and they will probably build you one for just under 100, or very near it, same with a sail loft

and I just had a bone to pick with Mr. Sweden, I mean honestly... well look at the thread..


and Matt, shorten up those posts of yours, only I am allowed to provide a ridiculous amount of examples and use "financial planning, economics, the relative rewards of McD's vs Sailing" as an example, and yes, even "etc" is mine too, its in the rules!!!
 
My post was NOT about using this forum as a way of enticing people into the class or of stifling our opinions – rather it was an attempt to ensure we do our best NOT to drive people off.

Matt

Your opinion is driving me off. :D

Equally, there was a GM aged gent who was looking to get back into sailing a laser the other day. He wanted to know if he should buy a pro'ed or standard boat and what he'd get for the extra clams.

First reply hit the nail on the head. Some topics just don't have a big discussion surrounding them. So total posts for that thread: 2

Must have missed the "cheap bastard" comment. Will go have a look in a minute. :cool:

It is equally important that newbies articulate their questions. The carry bag question is an example. The poster didn't define their reason or circumstance. Assuming what is really happening makes for long unhelpful threads. So the original poster has to expect some left-field replies.

The risk we take with bringing everyone into line unecessarily is boredom and a homogenisation of opinion and style.

One man's words may not speak to another man, yet a third man hears everything.

(what's that chainsaw? ~yawn~ you really are a bore, chainsaw, you know that? :rolleyes: )

Lets cut each other some slack, let's extend the olive branch of laser sailing to all...

lets pull the dolly of tolerance up the beach of laserforum.com for all returning sailors...

:eek:

even newbies who don't know the rules and shut you out at the leeward mark. (oh i'll have my revenge, newbie, be afraid newbie...)
 
Wow; it's very rare (and such a pleasure) that I agree with BOTH Merrily and salsa 88082. BOTH bring up valid points. And just to amplify on one point, this internet community (OK, not always a community) of Laser sailors is but a very small fraction of the world of Laser sailors. In my club of about 30 Lasers, not more than a few read this forum and very few ever contribute. Too bad that Mawill's friend didn't realize that. He/She is missing out on a lot of excitement.
 
Best of all, she only wants to keep the children safe - in their 4.7's.

BUT

once on the water, Merrily becomes a sailing she-devil!

:eek:

Don't be fooled Matt, she will push you into the committee boat, for fun!

Awww...how did you know?

Really, there are a lot of warm and fuzzy responses here (to each other) dismissing Mawill's complaint. I think he is on to something. It's been pretty raucous here lately, without actually being that helpful. I used to be more militant, I think, but I just got tired of telling you guys this stuff.

Remember, The Laser Forum is a place that anyone should feel free to ask questions, without fear of ridicule, and with the expectation of getting an answer, at the very least a referral to a thread using the Search function.
 
Chainsaw, you might agree with me here, but the beauty of SA is that you gotta get flogged for awhile before your take seriously, hell, even I'm still getting flogged! But aside from that, your pretty much guaranteed LOTS of good information, and can get your question answered right quick

it seems people want this forum to be lovy duvy with hearts and sprinkles everywhere, and safe for the children (there shouldn't be children on the net unless supervised by adults, but thats a different story, AVOID IT!!!)

its all great and dandy, and I'm sure it could be done, but its not the end of the world when some one calls someone a name or some such thing. Like the midget in a recent South Park episode said "words are like bullets, they pass right through me" you guys gotta remember, if you don't like what someone said, IGNORE IT, and MOVE ON!! no one said you had to reply to everything


but I'm sure we could all be decent human beings, and helpful to each other....
 
Chainsaw, you might agree with me here, but the beauty of SA is that you gotta get flogged for awhile before your take seriously, hell, even I'm still getting flogged! But aside from that, your pretty much guaranteed LOTS of good information, and can get your question answered right quick

it seems people want this forum to be lovy duvy with hearts and sprinkles everywhere, and safe for the children (there shouldn't be children on the net unless supervised by adults, but thats a different story, AVOID IT!!!)

its all great and dandy, and I'm sure it could be done, but its not the end of the world when some one calls someone a name or some such thing. Like the midget in a recent South Park episode said "words are like bullets, they pass right through me" you guys gotta remember, if you don't like what someone said, IGNORE IT, and MOVE ON!! no one said you had to reply to everything


but I'm sure we could all be decent human beings, and helpful to each other....


yeah, obviously people never check out SA to see what sailings about!
 
I'm having you on, Merrily. In the carry bag thread you recommended a silver platter.

Humour or ridicule? Depends on the person. Can't pre-spin your words to suit everyone out there. You'd end up sounding like a car maintenace manual.

Lets all just be ourselves.

(including Ross... and sk8ingsailor)
 
Wavedancer hit it right on the head:

In my club of about 30 Lasers, not more than a few read this forum and very few ever contribute.

That is 29 people that are not contributing their experiences, their knowledge to the Forum. Does no one find this to be a problem or a concern?

Chainsaw - the response to the Old Finn Sailor you refer to was from me! Left Field replies in my mind are still in play and useful - it is the off topic ranting and personal stuff that bugs me.

Anyway, one last time - I am not asking that we not discuss things or have opinions - simply be mindful of one and other and be nice to the new folks. If that is Lovey Dovey and Hearts and Sprinkles, then so be it - Sad Day say I. I will continue to consider it the normal way of communicating.

Must get back in the Cube.:D

Matt
 
MaWill, some words of advise

STAY AWAY FROM SAILING ANARCHY!!!!

you wont like it, people have been killed for less there than what goes on here, this is kids stuff for them
 
he didn't say anything bout kids, he was just talking about sailors of all levels

and I don't think anyone under 12 sails Lasers, if they do, they must be huge!!!!

and most kids by the time they hit ten have already seen 3 seasons of South Park, so Sailing Anarchy is pretty tame
 
That is 29 people that are not contributing their experiences, their knowledge to the Forum. Does no one find this to be a problem or a concern?

not personally no.

Lets face facts. If I wasn't here yapping about something, someone else would be yapping about pretty much the same thing in my place.

The common misconception by proponents of moderated forums is that there are thousands of people out there being forced to withold their opinion because people like us are talking.

Time and again I have seen this to be wrong. One group are banned or leave, and another group of similar size take their place.

If for example Ross was banned :D, do you honestly believe hundreds of new members would join up and start chittering away because they would no longer be forced to read his ideas regarding rule changes?


On the other hand, if Merrily was banned, would hundreds of SA members join up here and start chittering away like angry gibbons?

Both cases are unlikely. Growing communities on the internet is as complex as in the real world and under just as many apparently unknown influences.
 
not personally no.

If for example Ross was banned :D, do you honestly believe hundreds of new members would join up and start chittering away because they would no longer be forced to read his ideas regarding rule changes?

no!

"On the other hand, if Merrily was banned, would hundreds of SA members join up here and start chittering away like angry gibbons?"

we can only hope so!!! bring some life into this inbred pit! lol jk
 
In many aspects of life there is a balance. Ask a group of people a question and you will get a range of responses (both the detail and the manner). That is life. Within the constraints of good manners people need to appreciate that. As somebody said, always think that a 12 year old might be reading the responses. Also bear in mind that a 12 year old might me making the posts (and 12 yr olds are not always as "mature" in expressing themselves). For example, my own mental age has only just passed 14 years (unfortunately my chronological age is somewhat older).


However, one aspect that this thread does raise (and thus my post is "on-topic") it that of threads going "off-topic". I have seen several (non sailing) forums die completely due to an excessive insistence that threads stay strictly "on-topic". What starts to happen is that two groups of people emerge - those who have questions and those who have answers. After a bit of "stay on-topic" nagging, those who have answers get bored and post less, meaning fewer answers, so people ask fewer questions so activity slows, etc.


What often happens is that somebody asks a question, which the next couple of posts tend to answer. Related subjects then emerge and start to be discussed - until somebody comes along and does the "stay on-topic" post. I'm not suggesting a free for all, but a sensible balance is needed and more recently this forum has not quite got the sensible balance - too much of the "stay on-topic".


Actually the related discussions in a thread can be where the really interesting and useful aspects start to emerge. Kill that and you will kill the forum (see it before).


Ian
 
word

nobody likes the "stay on topic nazi"

if you just keep it with reason, its all good

but going from downhauls to 747's to Hitler's post death influence on the Cuban Missile Crisis is just ridiculous, and we should avoid that
 
Chainsaw,

I agree with what you say regarding on-line communities. But - to a large extent, the growth of an online community is based on the experience that 'new' people get when they visit. SA is a great example - I go there when I want to be entertained by mostly off the wall, out of bounds, and entertaining comments made by people with a common interest - Sailing. That is what SA is all about - as advertised. So what experience are we, as a community, trying to set up here? At the moment, we send some pretty mixed messages - IMO - there I go having another one!

I just find it really hard to understand why the idea of 'being mindful of one and other and being nice to newbies' is such a contentious issue. I have never advocated for a moderated forum, I was hoping for a self-moderated one.

I am off today as my wife is about to give birth to my new crew!

Matt
 
Speaking as an off-and-on lurker for the past two and a half years, I would say that yes, the signal-to-noise ratio has drifted a bit toward the noise side in the last few months. I also agree that this change in tone might scare away some newcomers.

What (if anything) should be done about it? Well, between the thoughtful comments in this thread and the work that is starting to be done on the wiki, I think we are on the right track to shift things a bit more in the friendlier direction. :)
 
Speaking as an off-and-on lurker for the past two and a half years...

You're not wrong there. Your stats show the last time you posted was 20th January 2005, then four posts in the last 2 days.

So why did you lurk? You can't be afraid of people like me that chatter. This thread could possibly labelled contentious, yet here you are, talking like an ab/normal individual - not a horrified lurker. There must be many reasons people choose not to post.

Lastly, how did you manage to get a red sail?

(Off topic! :eek: Call out the guard! Won't someone please call the internet police?!)
 
But - to a large extent, the growth of an online community is based on the experience that 'new' people get when they visit.

I agree that it does influence contributors, though whether it largely influences them is hard to say.

As others have said, if newbies are regularly attacked, only the harder types would contribute. But also if we strangle the sound of expressive types with calls for bannings, off topic, and general brow beating, the forum would loose them too.

Both groups have something to say. It's a careful balance.

Like sailing, the best performance is mostly found on the knife's edge. That we are even having this discussion may mean we are on the knife's edge now.

The pattern I see on forums is that people stop posting, or membership stops growing, then without any thought or research the reaction is that some single person or smallish group of people are to blame. The forum then seperates into two groups, those that support being nice and those that wish to be themselves.

The idea that if people were pleasent all the time, more people would join up is an assumption similar to a stereotype. It may contain some truth, but I do not believe it is the whole truth.

Neither group can grow the community by itself.

Again, like sailing, sometimes you have to put the theory aside and just go and do it, and things look very different on the water.

I think now I am just re hashing what I've already said in a little more depth. I understand your position.


I am off today as my wife is about to give birth to my new crew!

Matt

Excellent news! Good work!

Off topic! call out the guard! :eek:
 
Re: upwind, light sailor

180 pounds girls aint pretty my boy

ever heard the phrase "Lesbian Radial Sailor"?

*doesn't apply to you briscoe
 

Back
Top